Letterbox

[Brieandcamembert]

Has anyone ever got a response from the birth family years after no replies?

I always send lovely detailed letters and ask questions to try and elicit a response.

No significant literacy issues in either of them. (We did FFA so corresponded via the contact book).

Neither birth parent has ever written back. The complication is they have children adopted across 4 families now. Ours are the youngest. I wonder if it's too much of a task to send 4 letters or if we might one day hear back?

Neither were very motivated during proceedings.

rabblenotrebel

suspect you're preaching to the converted here. However, you're posting about the population level data, and adopters are posting about individual level data- these are rarely the same.

Perhaps not, however, laws and changes in practice are driven by this type of data and government policies and not by individuals.

At a population level, it's best for children to grow up in their family of origin. For our children... Not so much.

That happens. It's not always the case

At a population level, adoptees benefit from contact. For some of our children... Not so much.

I'm talking about adoption rights as a whole. Individually, it would be up you the adopted parent to explain and have an agreed exemption. Policies and procedures would need to be implemented like any new practice.

Something can be "true" at a population level, and yet not true for the individual.

Sure. However, what is true is that (when safe) it is beneficial for a child to have contact with biological family members.

The best people to make individual assessments for their children are the adopters.

I'd disagree. Some are fair, others are not. These changes need to be in law.

I feel you need to say your bit on contact, for personal reasons, and that's ok. But we're not going to argue with you on this- we know the population level data and guidance, we get that. We then use that for very individual level decisions, for our own beloved children, when we know their full story, which we'd never share openly in this arena.

Why shut down the debate? These changes are well overdue. Children deserve (where safe to) have contact with biological relatives. From surveys by academics, government etc., come ideas and change which of course I understand is daunting. Change has to come from the top down. You of course can advocate for your own individual children, however, that's not really inmo how change happens. One of the surveys I linked was carried out by adult adoptees. Adoptees and their lived in experience is very rarely taken seriously.

We're not the bad guys who need telling. We get it, we understand it. But it has to be implemented carefully, mindfully, thoughtfully, because these are vulnerable children, all with individual stories and needs.

Some do I believe. Some don't get it. They absolutely should some posters have out of touch ideas. I'm really aware that there are hurdles to overcome, like any rights added there is always and will always be push back from some.

@simonlebone

There isn't a debate.

You're talking about populations, we're talking about individuals. It's not a very debate, it's different levels of decision making.

It's a debate. You have a differing stance from mine. Regardless, these changes are coming which overall will be beneficial for most adopted children.

Brieandcamembert · Today 18:47

If there does become a drive towards f:f contact I wonder birth families of adopted children will start coming forwards to contest for it?

I'm fairly sure many biological relatives would relish contact. Some might not.

What I do wish is that there was an email / Tapestry type set up for contact letters as I think you are far more likely to get actesponse if they could just write a quick instant online response like they might on Facebook

I believe too contact both face to face and letterbox would be better done on line. Less chance of errors being made and it would be more streamlined and less stressful for all involved.

In a perfect world adopted children would have appropriate contact with birth family and adoptive parents would be happy to facilitate it and act as mini therapists to cope with the resulting fallout, with no concern for any impact on their own personal well being the fallout might cause.

But this is not a perfect world. Adopters are only human.

I took part in the consultation on contact, as did other adopters and our views were completely ignored.

Organising contact with dysfunctional people with no support is not some simple task. Adopters are already engaged in reparenting often highly traumatised children who have a range of disabilities and additional needs caused by the very people we are expected to cooperate with.

It is simply unrealistic imo to expect lay people to do this on their own. Contact needs to be treated seriously by social workers and support offered to everyone, including adopters.

When we reconnected with birth family half siblings post 18, this was at my request. The placing LA organised a sw to facilitate things. She contacted the 2 family members and asked if they would like to meet. They received counselling. We drew up an agreement regarding contact - exchange of gifts, photos, info. I met each birth family member separately with the sw. One decided not to go ahead. The other did go ahead. I then took one of my daughters at a time to meet the birth family member, again with the sw in attendance. I arranged asf counselling for both my girls.

And it still eventually all went wrong because the trauma is too much for any of them to deal with....

@simonlebone
the thing about research is that it is ever changing and goes in cycles. What is seen as best practice one day can be completely discredited the next.
You obviously have v strong views on the subject and are looking at it from a highly personal.point of view which is fine but obviously other adoptees do not feel the same and some have expressed that view on these forums already.
I think another consideration is that anything that decreases the pool of potential.adopters is likely to be detrimental to children in care overall
There is a lack of adoptors now and many will be v unwilling to sign up for a situation where they will constantly being at risk.of the relationship being undermined by contact with birth family members and even the child being able to.potentially end the adoption themselves ( as you seem to be advocating for).
I am a Foster carer and have seen first hand the damage that can be done by contact that only retraumatises the child but is promoted as being in the child's best interests. I do not have much faith left in a system that is so chaotic and chronically underfunded that it doesn't provide for soc workers to properly monitor these interactions.
And if adoptions do collapse under the strain ( or children can disrupt and return to birth families ) what then ? Care proceedings would have to be reinstated and children taken back.into care all over again. The birth families will still most likely have all the same issues going on so the child will be failed all over again. How is that beneficial to a child ?
And with the chronic lack.of Foster carers many children are ending up in residential homes! Again how is that in vulnerable children's interests.
I am not against direct contact and offered it myself ( parents couldn't be bothered to sustain it basically and yes you can try to justify that anyway you like but it basically boils down to that simple truth )
But in my experience birth families are v good at talking the talk but are rarely able to deliver on it ( again for many reasons ). Children have been removed for good reason and adoptive patents are not the enemy here.

Arran2024 · Today 20:07

In a perfect world adopted children would have appropriate contact with birth family and adoptive parents would be happy to facilitate it and act as mini therapists to cope with the resulting fallout, with no concern for any impact on their own personal well being the fallout might cause.
But this is not a perfect world. Adopters are only human.
I took part in the consultation on contact, as did other adopters and our views were completely ignored.

Appreciate it's difficult. However, at least you had a seat at the table. Rarely do adult adoptees get one. Are you aware if any adult adoptees were at or invited to the consultation on contact?

I believe everyone knows we don't live in a perfect world. The world we live in is subject to change. This change is a positive one on the whole.

Organising contact with dysfunctional people with no support is not some simple task. Adopters are already engaged in reparenting often highly traumatised children who have a range of disabilities and additional needs caused by the very people we are expected to cooperate with.
It is simply unrealistic imo to expect lay people to do this on their own. Contact needs to be treated seriously by social workers and support offered to everyone, including adopters.

There's a lot of what's blame attached to the bio parents. You're a parent by adoption, it's not the same (even as much as many adopters would like), as having a biological child. Within this remit it is the adopted parent's duty (where safe) to facilitate contact.

I believe I've tried to cover in my past comments that new processes and process will have to be in place. That will come. I believe there will be a lot of push back from adopted parents, like when letterbox was introduced. Letterbox is still here.

When we reconnected with birth family half siblings post 18, this was at my request. The placing LA organised a sw to facilitate things. She contacted the 2 family members and asked if they would like to meet. They received counselling. We drew up an agreement regarding contact - exchange of gifts, photos, info. I met each birth family member separately with the sw. One decided not to go ahead. The other did go ahead. I then took one of my daughters at a time to meet the birth family member, again with the sw in attendance. I arranged asf counselling for both my girls.
And it still eventually all went wrong because the trauma is too much for any of them to deal with....

Adoptees in réunion often find it difficult. Many reunion's do fail. Perhaps having a relationship with biological family (when safe to do so 😏) throughout their childhood will help in this respect.

I believe we have come to the end of the road on our particular discussion (debate really 🙃). I've fully explained my position, as have you.

@simonlebone I have birth and adopted children. Of course it's not "the same". But they are all my children, and the fierce love is the same. I'm their mum, just the same.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

It might be beneficial to listen to other perspectives, too.

flapjackfairy

the thing about research is that it is ever changing and goes in cycles. What is seen as best practice one day can be completely discredited the next.

That's complete nonsense in regards to adoption. The research has been ongoing for decades, and if anything the research gets stronger in regards to the rights for adopted children.

You obviously have v strong views on the subject and are looking at it from a highly personal.point of view which is fine but obviously other adoptees do not feel the same and some have expressed that view on these forums already.

Adoptees are not a monolith. This is an adoption board where all opinions etc are valid.

Of course it's personal and of course it's fine 😏. Adult adoptees, the ones who have lived through the draconian rules of absolute no contact have as much right as an adopted parent to have opinions.

I think another consideration is that anything that decreases the pool of potential.adopters is likely to be detrimental to children in care overall
There is a lack of adoptors now and many will be v unwilling to sign up for a situation where they will constantly being at risk.of the relationship being undermined by contact with birth family members and even the child being able to.potentially end the adoption themselves ( as you seem to be advocating for).

Ahh, that old 'excuse'. What? We as a society should not change outdated, and unhealthy practices because it might deter some prospective adopters? Ridiculous.

Re adoption annulment, perhaps I wasn't clear, however, I truly believe I was.

What I am advocating for, as are many adoptees worldwide are is that ADULT adoptees, who choose to being able to discharge their adoption orders. I hope that clears up the misconception you had. It's already a 'thing' in some countries.

https://adopteerightsaustralia.org.au/search-support/discharging-your-adoption/

I am a Foster carer and have seen first hand the damage that can be done by contact that only retraumatises the child but is promoted as being in the child's best interests. I do not have much faith left in a system that is so chaotic and chronically underfunded that it doesn't provide for soc workers to properly monitor these interactions.

It is in the child's best interest where safe to do so. Years of of cuts to services aren't great, this I do agree with. However, when this implemented, process and procedures will be in place.

And if adoptions do collapse under the strain ( or children can disrupt and return to birth families ) what then ?

I believe what you're doing is catastrophising to the highest order.

Care proceedings would have to be reinstated and children taken back.into care all over again. The birth families will still most likely have all the same issues going on so the child will be failed all over again. How is that beneficial to a child ?
And with the chronic lack.of Foster carers many children are ending up in residential homes! Again how is that in vulnerable children's interests.

I haven't advocated that children should be returned to their biological families.

I am not against direct contact and offered it myself ( parents couldn't be bothered to sustain it basically and yes you can try to justify that anyway you like but it basically boils down to that simple truth )
But in my experience birth families are v good at talking the talk but are rarely able to deliver on it ( again for many reasons ). Children have been removed for good reason and adoptive patents are not the enemy here.

Bio parents, as I explained in one of my first posts have varying issues. Poor educational, mental health issues and or addictions. People can heal from these things. Not all but some

You're the second poster to tell me that adoptive parents aren't the enemy here. Unsure why you believe that was required. What I have said is that adopted children need to have the same rights as other children. That some adopted parents have outdated views. And that it's beneficial for these changes to be made in law, with the process, support etc.

I've listened to many perspectives over the years. Same back at you. I'd also recommend that adopters stop trying to shoot down differing perspectives.

Remember, a different view may be difficult to stomach but you poster's can really beat down on opposing or different views. I've seen it in many of this particular board and there's absolutely no need for it. Please do better.

@simonlebone

The consultation was open to anyone. I didn't have a "seat at the table". I simply answered the call to contribute.

Secondly, you can't just close me down - I'm not particularly addressing you. You are of course responding to our detailed points. But there are other people in this debate too.

I believe we are done now. No good can come from communicating with you further on this topic when you make unhelpful and passive aggressive posts stating 'But there are other people in this debate too.'

@simonlebone
I think.everyone has been nothing but respectful of the views expressed tbh. Which is normally the case on this forum.

@simonlebone

'Please do better'

What do you mean by that ? Fall into line with your views?

With possibly one exception, everyone on this thread has agreed that theoretically contact with birth family is beneficial. We agree on that point.
But we have also tried to explain why for most of our children it's not safe and is potentially retraumatising. Which you seem to have difficult listening to. Putting across our point of view is not trying to silence you or other adoptees.

I'm now a foster carer and for 11 months I had to take a child once a month to sit in a room with their abuser who continued to manipulate and abuse them, including ridiculing them about their sexuality. But they had a 'right' to see their kid and my concerns were ignored.
After those meetings the child would come out angry, aggressive, we would go home and they would lock themselves in their bedroom and binge eat the huge piles of chocolate, crisps, fizzy drinks that the family member gave them. So I would spend the next month trying to get them back on an even keel. Except that their mental health collapsed to the point that I could no longer keep them with me.
As a foster carer I have no say, but sorry, no I would not expose my adopted child to that.
Because I believe that his rights to not be further abused or retraumatised outweigh anything else.
Incidentally, all my adopter friends, of which I have many, have facilitated meeting with birth family when their older teens have asked. The outcomes have had varying degrees of success, although it's still early days.

Ted27
I believe mumsnet.com needs to rename this board, the adopted/foster parents board. I fully understand why people with opposing or different views tend to steer clear.

Changes, which are for the good, around adoption are coming. Many of you will certainly need to do better. Your children will have the right to direct contact with their families.

No amounts of what if's, fear mongering or catastrophizing. As upsetting as some individual situations are, it is no reason whatsoever to "throw the baby out with the bathwater," so to speak. It's a fantastic plan. Best.

you are actually clueless about the issues involved frankly despite your grandiose rhetoric.

You can continue to sit in your ivory tower passing judgement on those of us at ground level doing the actual hard stuff if you choose but just because you say something doesn't make it true.
It is actually you who should be trying to do better and looking at the whole situation in a more measured way and not just looking at it through your v narrow lens of experience.

‘Your children will have the right to direct contact with their families.’

and very few of here as saying we are opposed to our childrens right to have direct contact, but adoptees are not a
monolith, so one child may want and thrive with direct contact, and another child may not, and sometimes as parents we have to make a decision on this based on what’s best for the child/ and be guided by what are children are showing and telling us.

most of us are not making this decision because we don’t like the birth parents, want to deny their existence, feel jealous
of the relationship between r child and their
parents.

we talk to our children regularly about their adoption, we discuss their birth parents freely. We tell them we understand that they love us and their birth parents, and of course they have room in their hearts for both. We read the letters they send, we promote the birth parents, we are
positive about them, we tell them they
dont have to choose between us and them, they don’t have to hide their feeling about their birth parents. We encourage
them to talk about their birth parents, their
feeling towards them, we hope by being open and honest and
encouraging they we feel like they can be honest back about their birth parents in a conversation with us.

but we also know, because we know
the child, we know them, we know the birth parents history, we sometimes know how they coped when contact was in place, we know if they experienced deregulation for weeks after contact, we know if they were scared of their parents, and use all of that
information to make the decision. And we can reassess and request direct contact when its right for the child.

if it’s typed up in law that direct contact must take place from day 1 in all adoptions, its going to fail the children it’s not right for. There needs to be a middle ground, based on my own experiences between adopting my two it’s already moving towards direct
contact, it being discussed more
between social workers and adopters, more people are going down that route, and that’s amazing for the children it’s right for.

I wish it had of been discussed with my oldest, starting direct contact when she was
small would have really worked for her,
and she could be having a great direct relationship with them now. I want a direct contact relationship to happen, i
dont want to wait till shes 18. I don’t want her to miss out on a relationship
with them that she could have. but as
she older it needs to be managed more carefully.

i would like to know how they are going to.enforce it. Adoptive parents alone hold PR so.if they say no.what happens then.? I can see them looking to outline it at the start for new adoptions ( which will impact massively on people willing to adopt in the first place and will result in children remaining in Foster care or, given the chronic lack.of Foster carers children's residential homes which will lead to more uncertainty and trauma for children in the care system ) but for existing families soc services have no.control or say in how those families are run.
So are they planning on taking families to court ? Where are they finding the money for all the legal action that may be required not to mention the soc workers required to.support contact and supervise it safely . And there will need to be a large body of therapists to.support the entire process .
Considering it takes months to get a soc worker to.return a phone call and we have issues getting statutory legal stuff sorted going back nearly a decade ( never got life story work for example despite chasing and chasing and this is just one example ) I can't see it being anything other than a huge mess that will only further weaken a care system already on the point of collapse.
In short Social Services ( and their budgets ) have got bigger fish to fry.

@simonlebone

Do you have an issue with foster carers as well?

flapjackfairy

I just can't. Someone presents a different view, has given their reasoning and yet you all persist to drive so very defensively your points home then project your defensiveness towards poster's who disagree with your rhetoric 🤦.

I understand that you wish to paint me as an unreasonable adoptee. Categorically for the third time now, I believe it might be the second time saying it you, that I don't have issues with parents adopted, foster or natural. Jump to that conclusion if you choose too. You have already. I'm not here to change your mind. I'm here to give an another voice, one that differs from yours, but as someone who has lived thro a closed adoption is as valid, probably, definitely, more so than any adopted parent.

Direct contact is coming despite your protestations. When it is introduced I'm sure you'll be informed directly by the relevant authorities.

flapjackfairy

You can continue to sit in your ivory tower passing judgement on those of us at ground level doing the actual hard stuff if you choose but just because you say something doesn't make it true.

The hardest work is done by the adoptees.

@simonlebone
I am not engaging anymore .
I wish nothing but good things for you for the future

I don't think we're in competition as to who does the hardest work.

And I'm a "natural" parent- nothing unnatural about me.

You obviously have things you need to say, and that's understandable, and we're willing to listen... But we place what you say in a wider context. You're not the one true voice.

@simonlebone
Sorry one last thing.
It was in fact ME who offered direct contact to my child's birth family and bent over backwards to try to make it happen at considerable inconvenience to myself . I always supported it.
They birth parents could not be bothered basically and it fizzled out so any legal changes to direct contact doesn't affect me either way.
And I have never tried to paint you as an unreasonable adoptee either. Just a somewhat naive one who is unable to look at the situation dispassionately. You have a story obviously . I could hazard a good guess at it and it has obviously scarred you. I am truly sorry about that. But he birth families seem to be getting a free pass here.. At the end of the day their inability to parent adequately and safely is what lead to your adoption and the adoption of others like you which is v sad. But adoptors are not to blame for that .
I am not some evil adoptor denying my child their birthright as you seem to think.
Anyway I have no more to say and will leave it there but I do sincerely wish you well going forward. All the best.

Respectfully the closed adoption you had isn’t the adoption of today, we, social workers, professional, and adopters are learning from the mistakes made in past generations and trying to do better, for adoption to be an open dialogue, to support our children in the relationship with the birth parents. We might not be there yet, but your one size fits all, adopted children must have a direct contact relationship won’t work for all children and you posts don’t seem to acknowledge that. Your experience as an adult adoptee makes you a more knowledgable and qualified voice on adoptees, and should be listened to, but my knowledge on my children, makes me more qualified to make decisions about them on an individual level, both by listening to adult adoptees and listening to my children and working out the best path forward