disruption post adoption order

[lawrenorder]

1.5 years post adoption order, my kids are 3 & 5 my wife and I have hit a wall with our 5 year old son. We don't love him. We have struggled to bond with him or attach with him we are basically just meeting his needs and doing what we can emotionally to make sure he is happy but even now it's the bare minimum. He has been assessed doesn't have additional needs, he has controlling behaviours related to his past and most of the time you either acquiesce to 100% of what he wants or you get aggression/physical/screaming/lying/sabotaging. We have done therapy. We understand it's a lifelong commitment but we don't have a life long commitment in us anymore and we both want this boy out our home. Away from us. Away from his sister who deserves a calm safe environment to live in. He's only 5. We have been emotionally and physically bested by a 5 year old. As much as I feel sorry for him I know that the future of him in this house would be bleak. Im already struggling with a 5 year old what will he be like at 8,13, 16. I shudder at the thought. I shudder at the thought of my entire life being at war with a child.

Can you disrupt post adoption order? As my daughter is legally my child can I seperate them legally (I'm not asking about the emotional impact as I already know it's massive) but legally can we do that?

@lawrenorder

I'm sorry you are in this situation- it sounds incredibly tough
I know a few adopters where the children were returned to foster care under section 20 accommodation, though not as young as 5.
You would remain the child's legal parent. I can't see how you could remove the legal relationship between your children, although there are SWs on here that could give you a more definitive answer on that.
You need to talk to your SW.

I think it is as the above poster says. He will still be your legal son, so a part of your family just like his sister.

I am no longer in touch with many fellow adopters but as I recall from what some adopters said, you should be aware that your daughter could act very differently if your son leaves - out of trauma over his loss but also because she may now be reacting to the way he is (kind of good / bad child act - can't think of the right terminology).

Care experienced children are automatically considered to have additional needs, so you’ve been poorly advised there. His emotional outbursts and need for control also indicates additional needs.

Where are you in the UK, because that will change the advice you’re being given. Each nation has different legal processes for adoption and disruption so your location (as in which nation you’re in) will make a difference.

I did hear of a case where an adoption order was overturned.

The adoptive parents had been deceived by Social Services about the nature of the children they were adopting would would not have consented to adopt them had they been aware of their background.

Adoption breakdown is as far as I can see swept under the carpet and little ir no work done on it.

@Jellycatspyjamas

We are in England, the north, he was assessed for ASC (ASD) ADHD and FASD. the psych said that he has some traits of pervasive demand avoidance?. But because he is definitely not on the autism spectrum it's hard to give him that diagnosis definitively.

I honestly think I have burnout and blocked care with him. I know what he needs and that's more connective parenting. But I am just over being his therapist right now I'm exhausted. And normally my wife and I will support each other when we are like this and tag team the parenting but we are both done. All we get from social work is toxic positivity that "all kids are like this, all kids in the school holidays are hard work" "it takes time it's only been 2 years"

What are they saying about developmental trauma though, which can have overlap with ASD, ADHD and FASD in terms of presentation? How are they explaining his behaviours and what support have you been given in parenting him?

In terms of disruption, the adoption order basically gives you the legal status as his parent and so the process is effectively the same as for any parent who is struggling to parent their child. Which is to say it’s very difficult. You could seek a voluntary order under Section 20, but in all honesty social workers will need to show they’ve explored every other option before they’ll consider taking him back into the care system so you’ve got a road ahead of you. You will also be expected to facilitate contact with his sister in the longer term.

Have you told social work that you’re seriously considering disruption? What support have you had thus far?

If he behaves like that, it is obviously false to claim that he doesn't have additional needs. Who assessed him? If he has traits of everything, he and you are dealing with a lot.

You have had him for only 1.5 years which is not a long time in terms of therapy. What types of therapy has he had?

You clearly need much more support than you are currently getting and, from the sound of it, more specialised support.

This is in the north of England and maybe helpful: https://www.integratefamilies.co.uk/national-centre-for-child-trauma

This is in the south, but their resources are excellent and maybe of help: https://beaconhouse.org.uk/resources/

You can ask for therapy sessions funded via the adoption support fund for your wife and you, in case you haven't had those yet. They are sessions focused on your relationship with your child and parenting strategies.

You will get excellent advice on the Adoption Disruption private Facebook Group. I would also check out reactive attachment disorder and the excellent resources on the (US) Rad Advocates Group. I will not give you any well-meaning advice about trying this therapy or that therapy because only you know the reality of life with your adopted child and the effects on you as a human being. We all have different thresholds of tolerance. I am currently attempting to disrupt with my AD1(16.5) after 15.5 years. I wish I had made the heart/head decision sooner and saved years of trauma for my entire family. You will no doubt be judged by outsiders and even your insiders who may consider you have not tried hard enough or persevered long enough. They may think you monsters. But they are welcome to try parenting traumatised children, without any meaningful support. You will need to gird your loins if you do proceed with disruption. But there is support from those who have trodden the path before you.

Head over to the attachment and trauma group on Facebook - the one with Neil Griffiths and also look at the PATCH group. Our eldest now attends a residential special school which has so far saved our family. Sadly, he can not live at home safely but we see him regularly and he has made so much progress. We have a younger sibling too. I agree with previous posters - there are additional needs. Feel free to pm me.

Hi @lawrenorder

I wonder if the replies you've had are what you expected or hoped for?

Despite the heartache and grief involved, my friends whose children returned had to return to care don't regret it, they have protected the other children and over time have established better relationships with the child who left.

On the issue of additional needs- he clearly does. But he has had a very narrow assessment.
I have recently been fostering a 13 year old. The SWs were insistent on focusing on ASD/ADHD. Whereas I was jumping up and down shouting PTSD. So I think you probably need to think a bit wider.

Is there anything in the birth parents history about mental health conditions ?
To be honest 'therapy ' is such a wide area and we throw the word about very freely. Its pointless if the therapy is not the correct therapy for the identified need and with the right therapist.
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't disrupt, I understand you are tired and depleted, but would a little wider assessment be beneficial to identify what is going on with him which might lead to better support.

Ultimately you may still decide that you can't continue but is it worth one last shot?

Some sage advice above.

I think there are many possible steps between this and disruption, but the first step is just giving yourself grace. You have come this far and it is hard to find the words to explain to someone who doesn't get what it is like to live with a traumatised child just how wrung out and burnt out you can feel.

When you say you have done therapy, was this through the ASF and a private support clinic or the NHS? The only reason I ask is because CAMHS might be able to offer ongoing support, and pull together teams.

I would write a cold hard clinical list of all the incidents and go back to a GP and ask for an(other) urgent CAMHS referral. Pull as many safeguarding and mental health bells and whistles as you possibly can- he absconds, he physically assaults his sibling and you, he expresses violent thoughts, he refuses to follow instructions which puts him at significant risk of harm, so on and so forth, whatever is true. Count how many ACEs he has had and include that on the form, and ask for it to be triaged specifically by the LAC team. CAMHS don't require a diagnosis to work with them (at least in our area). We also said that being seen by a professional is good because other professionals are .ore likely to deal with them and take them seriously, or have referral pathways not open to you, so do go back to the GP and ask for onward referrals to as many people as you can.

Go to the school and note the same thing- what are they doing to support him? If the meltdowns happen after school then it is highly possible he is masking. Do they had interventions in place? Could they? Could you do a parental request for an EHCP?

If all else is falling, you could consider a fairly radical approach as you haven't lost anything if disruption is a viable option on the table for you.

For example, we have started incorporating significant elements of low demand parenting. Not completely, but his outbursts, aggression and frequency of meltdown have reduced in the couple of months we have been doing it. I follow atpeaceparenting on Insta and it helps me to contextualise things in his brain. I mix it up with therapeutic parenting, and it does help in the long run. There is something empowering to just allow some stuff once you can let to of the idea that they have 'won’. Things like I always allow him to win at games we play, we have a chilled approach to dinnertime, if he wants a snack we don't make him wait, and we don't limit it either. He is getting better at self limiting. We don't sweat the small stuff like please and thank you particularly when he is under stress. Within reason, he can control his own choices unless it is about health and hygiene or bedtime. Stupid stuff like whether he wants to wear PJs was causing us huge upsets. Now I let him decide, and suffer the consequences either way. He can't control others, but he does get to decide what to do with his own body as long as he is safe.

However, I always emphasise to professionals that this is a significant accomodation I am making, and I want it specifically noted that the level of control he requires is abnormal and debilitating. He is at significant risk of social exclusion, and requires continual monitoring. The professionals surrounding you should be made aware of this quite clearly, with a table of it spelled out if needed!

I don't know if you are part of adoption UK but they had a course that might work for you, it's about primary school age children and child on parent violence, it's on the 3rd December 9.30 to 3. I've not been to that particular one but something similar and the relief to have some strategies that actually worked was amazing.

I'm so sorry to hear about how hard it is, and I can offer a virtual handhold. Blocked care is so shit, it's like shamey shame mum guilt in reverse and on steroids and I get how horrible it feels. I'm sure you know all the places you can look for support, but just in case you didn't know, the NATP run an empathetic listening service, which might be useful.

It sounds like you have e been denied support that is desperately needed, but when things get this bad, sometimes bashing on doors is the only way to get heard. I'm sorry to hear how hard it is for you right now.

I just wanted to comment and say I understand the way you are feeling but with regards to you not being able to see a more positive future for you and for him - I am ten years down the line with a similar (then) 5 year old and he is now a fairly charming and pleasant teenager.

I'm not an adopter but I have fostered my 15 year old for ten years, and at 5 I found him extremely difficult. Always wanted his own way, always wanted control of every situation, would scream and lash out if I told him no etc. And he was worse at school until 6.5 when he moved school and made the most of his fresh start. Before that he was hurting other children, damaging school equipment and refusing to do as he was asked.

By about age 9 I felt totally burnt out. I remember going on a fostering course and everyone saying how great they felt to know they were helping the children in their care and I said I just felt flat all the time. And if anything his behaviour got worse from then for while. Arguing back constantly. Slamming doors. And he would always want to play with younger children (so he could control them) but then get too rough or mean and they would end up in tears. A neighbour of ours moved house partly because of him being horrid to her son.

But, gradually his temper cooled a little. It's still there at times but I honestly can't remember the last time he screamed at me on the way to his bedroom. And I'm starting to feel much fonder of him and able to have a bit of a laugh and a joke with him, which I hadn't felt able or inclined to do for years.

And he's happy at school and doing well there and he has friends. Touch wood he's never been in trouble with the police. Our town had riots the other week and while other teenagers were running feral smashing the town up he was happily playing online games with his mates. So a badly behaved five year old who you struggle to love does not necessarily mean a badly behaved fifteen year old who's already made enough bad choices for a life time. Things can get better. But I do understand if you don't feel you can carry on with him.

What helped me to carry on with mine was to have a good picture of his background. Why he was in care and what was happening with his parents now. That made me empathise with him enough to want to keep him with me and not traumatise him any further.

I have a similar child so I really do know what it’s like op and my heart goes out to you. My advice is sensory based, not talking therapy for him and individual therapy for you and your wife. Low demand parenting, really let go of the norm. EHCP and a special school placement. A proper assessment and diagnoses via the asf and tell thém you suspect cptsd. Apply for dla and carers allowance.

@AmyandPhilipfan the bit you said about a badly behaved 5 year old doesn't mean a badly behaved 15 year old genuinely brought me the peace I needed this morning! Sometimes I'm terrified that it will never stop, that he will be a whirlwind of raw emotion for his whole life and that no door will remain unslammed whilst he is in residence, but I like to think there is hope that he could be like other kids have been through similar things and can turn out to be fairly decent people who can face the world with a degree of chill.

Thank you!

@AmyandPhilipfan thank you, I needed to hear your story, too. Thank you.

Hi. Sorry to hear about this. You may be experiencing Blocked Care, which is a real issue in adoption. I have a daughter with PDA (pathological demand avoidance) and I know how difficult it is to parent children like this. I would suggest you join Facebook groups for parents of children with PDA and get help for you and your wife. Your son may not have a diagnosis but you could still benefit from pda parenting strategies. And you might like to reframe disruption as "parenting from a distance". It is incredibly difficult to disrupt and especially if your child isn't violent. But pda techniques can really help.

@lawrenorder how are you doing? Thinking of you.

I am the sibling of a disrupted adoption.My siblings adoption was disrupted and they went away. The loss was imense, still is. The OP writes above about the siblings need for a calm safe environment. Ive felt a draw to reading these forums for some time now and rarely see the sibling perspective represented.So I wanted to say: please never overtly make this about the siblings needs for calm and safety. I wanted calm and safety, prayed for it every day of my young childhood.But I wanted my sibling in my life so much more.
If disruption must happen then please talk about the sibling who went away, make a helpful family story about this for all of them.Keep them present in every way you can. Really persevere with ensuring the siblings have a relationship where you can. I have spoken with other siblings in this position and often what we felt able to express about the disruption (or the volatile situation before the disruption) was not our reality.So that’s something to bear in mind too, trying to give permission for all reactions whatever they are and whenever they come.

That's interesting.

We adopted 2 full siblings (girls) and the single most difficult issue in our lives has been their relationship. We are 23 years in now. They are 25 and 26. And still we cannot leave them together for a nanny second.

We have had so much therapy, for them individually, as a family, for the two of them, for us parents, and nothing has changed. In fact it has got worse.

Over the years people have often suggested we disrupt our eldest but we haven't - but at huge cost to us. We cannot go out and leave them, ever.

Yes they adore each other too but the toxicity is always there.

Our youngest moved out recently and I spent a whole day throwing up, from the release of it. I still can't believe we have some semblance of a normal life now. But our youngest came round at the weekend and we were back to square one.

So while it is natural to want to keep siblings together, in real life it isn't that easy. We had to move our eldest out of her bedroom to our front room bed sofa for six months and my husband slept on the floor outside the door to make sure she couldn't attack her sister / her sister didn't make stuff up.

I would never recommend adopting siblings. The trauma bonds are often unworkable. Most of my friends who adopted siblings have problems too.

This sounds horrendously difficult and exhausting for you. I hope you get to enjoy the moments of “normal” calm life that you describe.

You are right in that there is also huge cost to not disrupting when things are unsafe. I imagine had disruption not happened in my family there would have also been huge cost. All I know is that there is a lot of survivors guilt to being the non disrupted sibling, and that there are ways of managing disruption (or any loss) that can be protective and helpful for the siblings

I can tell you that me and my siblings are older than your children and we now have a loving relationship-regular contact, family occasions together etc.This wasn’t the case in our 20s. It’s not perfect but I am so grateful for what we have now, and sad for what we lost.