Advice on pursuing fertility treatment vs adoption :D

[Cosmos24]

Hi all, I've just joined this site a few days ago and want to start by saying thank you so much for all the honest and caring messages I have read through the adoption threads so far. They have been so helpful, I wondered if I could ask a question of my own...

Unfortunately my husband and I have had 3 miscarriages in the last 12 months, which has been really heart breaking. We had always said we would like to consider adoption as well as having biological children, but I guess we just started trying to grow our family the old fashioned way. Things have been a lot harder than expected and we've reached the point where we want to make decision on how we move forward - do we seek further fertility investigations/treatment or is it time to consider growing our family through adoption?

For years I have been very pro-adoption and always thought we would probably adopt as well as having biological kids. It hasn't been until recently though that I have really gained some level of understanding of the stresses and strains involved - both in the long application process (which I realise is necessary, but is obviously very tough) and then to quote one poster on here, the "lottery" in whether or not you end up with kids who are sadly so traumatised/affected by their poor start in life that their families are in crisis (someone said 1 in 3 chance).

I realise this is a hugely personal question, that no one can really answer for us, but I would be interested in hearing people's opinions/experiences of fertility treatment vs adoption. How did you decide on one over the other (including single adopters considering sperm donor)?

The main reason for considering adoption prior to our own fertility issues was the idea that I wanted to provide a loving home for a kid/kids who wouldn't otherwise have one. Realising they did nothing to deserve their difficult start in life, but fully deserve the best future possible (I meet a lot of people from abusive backgrounds through my work and can see the difference a loving home could make). But now I am wondering a) it seems there are more prospective adopters than kids so is that even necessary and b) if we would be able to cope with the stresses and strains of raising traumatised children - would we be the lucky ones who's kids have manageable challenges or would we end up hopeless/divorced?! There is a very reasonable chance we could be successful at a biological pregnancy in the future, but who knows...

As a bit of background we are both working stressful jobs, but I hope to take a year off (either maternity or adoption leave) and then work 2-3 days/week and am happy to change careers if the current job is too much with kids (either adopted or bio). We have a 4 bedroom house, so could in theory adopt 3 siblings and would definitely consider this, but I suspect 2 might be more than enough to start with!

Sorry I've written so much, I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed by all of this! Entirely reasonably, the local services want 6 months of no fertility treatment/investigations before applying, and it already feels like such a long process, I guess I'm maybe putting too much pressure on us to figure this all out so we can get on with whatever decision we end up on...

Thank you!!

If you don't like another's views on life, or anothers opinion, or their experience maybe you shouldn't be in here, i said this was my opinion, and also stated you've no idea about my life!

You all quickly judge me for saying love is enough, why can't I believe that? My life hasn't been easy and thats what I believe? My experience in life is greater than you might think!

I appreciate everyone has different opinions, but you can't change anothers opinion, mine is also valid.

My opinion that a child deserves love regardless of any situation offends you so much? But I'm to educate MYSELF 🙈 wow.

I wish you all the best 🥰

@Tasha0429

I was under the impression that adoption threads didn't appear under suggested topics because it often an emotional topic where conversations can be easily derailed by people who aren't actively parenting adopted children or who are looking to do so. I didn't think you could just stumble upon it as a clicked link unless you were looking for it, maybe that has changed.

You are right, you cannot pick and choose when to love somebody, so given that you have not been placed in a situation where you have been placed with a child who is not biologically related to you, it must be really difficult for you to understand where experienced posters here are coming from. However, I will say that saying emotive things like "my opinion is that a child deserves love regardless of any situation" isn't what you initially said (you said it could overcome the challenges, which it can't necessarily) and is genuinely offensive as it is suggesting that despite what others have said, that you are assuming they do not love their children. Of course all children deserve love, this thread was about OP realising what most people who have real life, up to date and detailed, lived knowledge of adoption knows: love ALONE is not enough. And to try and bring it back to OPs original post, she has presumably been investigating and finding out what every professional involved in the adoption process tells you- love is a good start, but alone will not heal the child and you have to be ready for that. Many people are not.

I didn't comment on anything about you personally apart from when you have said- that you haven't adopted. I didn't say that nobody else has challenges, which patently they do. I feel every sympathy for those who, like yourself, are clearly trying to parent children with different needs. And I'm sure, as much as you love them, you know that loving parenting alone won't heal them, thag its still difficult and you wish the world wasn't like that wasn't because thats what parents wish for their child. It's the same with adoption, and not everybody is able to do it.

Of course you are allowed your opinion, but given that you opened your post with the fact that you do not have lived experience of adoption, and have not mentioned any specific professional experience, it feels pertinent to challenge it and highlight your lack of lived experience in comparison to those who deal with it all day every day. I wouldn't dream of going onto a specific SEND forum and publicly making suggestions about something that I had no personal experience of, and there's no way I would be commenting on something on Mumsnet forum in a professional capacity! I may use my professional experience in education to give some advice on specific topics where relevant, but in doing so I also always try to explain the limitations of my advice or opinions based on my qualifications so that people understand and can act accordingly. I suggest if you are going to make vague comments and derail a thread that you explain a little more about what experiences you have so that people know in what vein to take your comments.

Love is as love does, but I will say i agree with@WittyUsername123 that its vastly offensive to give voice to the opinion and suggest that you know whether someone should or shouldn't be allowed to adopt based on whether you think they love their child enough. Plenty of professionals have assessed adopters and take great pains to reiterate time and again that love alone is not enough, and adopters have to go through the mill to prove that they understand this.

@Cosmos24 I do apologise for this thread becoming lengthy- it is frustrating when they get hijacked and straw manned, but it genuinely think it can be dangerous for people to go around suggesting that of people who adopt struggle to love their child off the bat, or who might have complicated and nuanced feelings towards their child don't think "children deserve love", and that's just something that can be thrown about with no challenges because it makes a difficult process even more isolating, and gives people like OP embarking on the process a false sense of what life is like.

However, it is a cautionary tale as to why adopters need adoption specific communities- people who will neither diminish nor hyperbolise the realities and challenges, and who truly get it. If you do decide to proceed with adoption, know that there is an excellent adoption community who won't tell you to love it away, or make sweeping statements, but who will hand hold you through some difficult times and who are rarely offended.

I won't be engaging in any more posts because I've explained a lot and I don't want to derail further, but I will end on a positive

For any regular adoption forum regular followers who want a bit of good news or lighthearted fun, yesterday my son decided that after a year and a half of eating only plain pasta, it was Mama's fault that he didn't know he liked tomato sauce on pasta and it was only because I hadn't personally hand fed him it dipped on sauce only on one end, pretended it was an airplane and singing tractor Ted with a bowl on my head that he didn't know that. So guess what I will be doing for the foreseeable future!

@Torvy

You have made so many eloquent and insightful posts recently - thank you

But I'm afraid my long lasting image of you is going to be with a bowl on your head singing Tractor ted😀

I'll start by saying I wasn't here to offend anybody.

Just because I haven't adopted a child does not mean I haven't experienced anything and I need to educate myself?

So what about those who have been adopted and are now adults with their own children? Still no experience?

Also just because I've not adopted I've not experienced loving a child who is not biological mine? Wrong.

This is where you are completely judging me, from a short statement.

Your right I've not adopted and maybe it's not quite the same, however I simply came across a post and was not here to post nasty comments I simply said look beyond all of that, because in life we cannot predict anything, and love itself really should be enough if your in it for the right reasons.

Clearly people are reading out of context.

Not everyone will comment and post their entire life in one comment.

Also this forum is free for anyone to comment, in all different circumstances.

You all came at me because I said love should be enough basically.

Any person from any background can read these threads and people who have certainly experienced it first hand as a child will almost certainly be reading these threads. Question your own actions before jumping at a person for no good reason and questioning my education!

Because in fact we are human beings and we have voices to, and should be loved none the less! Bio or not! And one day this may be your own children reading threads.

I myself hope that every single child has a loving home, and parents that will love them regardless because I once was that child.

Your right I've not adopted and maybe it's not quite the same, however I simply came across a post and was not here to post nasty comments I simply said look beyond all of that, because in life we cannot predict anything, and love itself really should be enough if your in it for the right reasons.

Ww really can’t predict anything, a birth child could easily have very complex needs and in that situation I’d also say sometimes love isn’t enough. I’ve worked with many parents who love their children but just can’t meet their needs to a good enough standard. Love is an essential part of the mix, and massively underrated for children in care particularly where “professionalism” takes precedence over love and affection.

Children need love, they also need clear boundaries, they need adults who can advocate for their needs, who can find their way through at times very complex systems, adults who are tenacious, patient and empathic. You can have great love without those skills and qualities, and you may grow and developing those abilities as you parent a child that needs you to be all of those things.

Thinking of adoption specifically, love isn’t the starting point, how can it be when for most of the process you’re thinking about children in abstract, in that you don’t have a particular child to hold in mind they way you do in pregnancy. Love grows as you learn about “your” child, as you get to know them and care for them. You still need to care, advocate for them, hold boundaries for them, make decisions for them and while you have their best interests at heart, in those early days love for that particular little person needs time and space to grow.

I don’t think anyone is having a go at you, just recognising that love isn’t the starting point, and that most adoptions that break down don’t do so through a lack of love.

Completely understand that, I have a child with additional needs I know the struggles. And I get your point totally valid, and everyone has struggles, however if you adopt a child you would love them unconditionally? That's what I'd like to believe, and let's say something completely went wrong, and after however long someone was living with any parent, surely that love would still be there? And still have there best interests at heart?

Peoples comments were mostly certainly very disrespectful, my comment was a nice comment, then I was fire at with educate yourself.! Rude when people have no idea who a person is or what they have lived. Respectfully I'm going to leave this here now, i didn't really expect any of this, after making a comment that wasn't rude or in any which way horrible, Wishing everyone the best!

That's what I'd like to believe, and let's say something completely went wrong, and after however long someone was living with any parent, surely that love would still be there? And still have there best interests at heart?

Yes, when I decided to adopt my two I made a commitment to love them unconditionally - initially that love took the form of caring for them and building a relationship with them. Now I’d kill for them without hesitation - but feeling that love wasn’t instant, but the intention was always there and that meant giving up wasn’t an option on hard days.

Even where a child can’t live with their adoptive parents there’s usually still an established relationship and care - sometimes the child living somewhere else can preserve an otherwise untenable situation.

@Tasha0429

Where has any adopter on this thread said they do not love their child or children unconditionally ?

That is not the point that was being made.

The point is that love is not enough.

Personally I did find your comment that love should be enough if we 'are in it for the right reasons' to be offensive.

You say that you have a child with disabilities - do they need medicine, equipment, therapies ? If they do then love isn't enough for your child is it?
Adopted children can be very complex and deeply traumatised. Support is hard to get.

We are often lacking vital medical and other information which would help us understand our children. I have no idea what happened to my son in the first four years of his life.
Finally if love was enough, many children would not end up in care in the first place. I have no doubt my son's birth parents love him. Keeping him safe is another matter

I haven't stated anybody doesn't love their child. My love for my child is enough to keep him in my care. That's enough, whatever challenges he may face! And I'm not entertaining that conversation anymore than that.

Addios amigo 🥰

Hi all, thank you for the further comments.

@Tasha0429 thank you so much for sharing your views here. You're right it was a very lovely, positive comment and I know you didn't meant to offend anyone with your first post.

I am probably the least qualified person on this thread to comment on any of this as I am neither a parent of adopted or biological children, or an adopted individual myself... but I suspect love probably is the most important thing to bring to any situation. It's just that love alone sadly won't fix everything - so it can't be the only thing you bring to the situation. If a child had cancer for example, loving them SO much wouldn't cure the cancer. The kid would really need a tonne of love, because they're going through a scary and terrible thing, but the love itself wouldn't stop the cancer - they need doctors/medicine etc. I think the other posters points are that in the same way if a kid has trauma, whilst love is definitely needed, it won't cure the trauma, they need a lot of extra support/therapies etc.

Am I right in understanding that you were adopted yourself as a child? Like you say, you may not have adopted children yourself, but if you were adopted then that is a real life experience that gives you a unique experience that others here don't necessarily have, and I appreciate you taking the time to share your views with me.

I also really appreciate that coming on a forum like this can be quite difficult for you, reading about the challenges that adopted parents face, when the challenges adopted kids face aren't necessarily being represented from their own perspective. I totally get why you want to highlight the importance of love in these challenging situations. I can also imagine that as an adopted individual it can be hard reading that some people wouldn't recommend/consider adoption.

Please feel reassured that in as far as I can know now (before becoming a parent) that I would deeply love my child, whether they are adopted or not. And you're right that sometimes there is never a "good time" to have kids, and asking too many "what ifs" can stop you doing something wonderful. I guess I am just trying to make the best decision for my family. My personality is such that I like to ask lots of questions and find out as much information as possible before making a decision so I know that I've made the best decision with the information available.

Like you say, being a parent of any child can be really challenging, but I think children who have had experience of care/been taken from their birth families have a deeper layer of trauma than (most) kids who haven't had that experience. You are SO right that they are deserving of love - if anything they need more love than kids who've had an easier start in life. But I think there's also a higher chance that they will be more difficult to parent than a child who hasn't had those experiences, because that trauma will need to be expressed for the child to deal with it. And the way they express it can be really painful for those who love them.

I deeply believe that all children deserve a loving home, but I guess I am worried that things will be so difficult that we end up in crisis or divorced as a result. If we continue to have further miscarriages I think we will definitely apply for adoption, but at the moment I worry that if things got really hard in an adoption and I hadn't given pregnancy "enough" of a chance then I would regret choosing the harder option when I could have had an "easier" time with a biological child - even if that might not have actually been true, I worry that I would think it was.

I never worried about this when thinking about adoption before I got married, but I think now that I have someone tangible in front of me who I truly deeply love (my husband), I worry about losing him. Before I met him, I think I could hypothetically put the "child in need of a loving home" before myself and my imaginary family, but now I have something that could be lost I'm a bit more cautious. Obviously adopting kids doesn't necessarily mean we will get divorced, but I worry the strain of kids who are really struggling would increase the chance of that.

I honestly don't know if these thoughts are right or not (hence my original post) - it might just be me being too anxious or selfish. But we're not rushing into any decisions so have got a bit of time to really think and pray about it all (we're Christian so ask God what he wants us to do too).

@everyone else - thanks, I do get it :)

@Cosmos24

Hi, Thank you so much, for understanding I was not writing that in any means in the way people have took it, and I get of course there will be other issues that love can't solve, and I totally understand that, I didn't mean quite literal that that's all one will need in the entire life, what ever situation any child faces having a loving parent is definitely one of the most important things we can give a child. People have seen and took my message completely out of context.

Yes you are correct, I was, and I was fortunate to have a loving family who loved me unconditionally, regardless of my traumas, and tantrums and my behaviour at times, and that's exactly where my comment stems from, Love is everything in some situations, and most importantly in all situations a child needs love alongside anything they are going through in life. And I just hope and pray that children get loving parents.

I do completely understand your worries, and you as a person have every right in having those feelings, and I really wasn't undermining any of them, I was simply saying your heart is already in the right place. That was my biggest point.

YOU ARE NOT SELFISH.
Even if you didn't adopt you aren't selfish because a selfish person would not think twice. I love how much you love your husband also, and the way you put your marriage first amazing, before anything. You already have established that family really is everything right there 🥰

Honestly I wish you all the best, you will be amazing parents one day ❤️❤️

@Cosmos24 hi, how are things going in your thoughts with regards to adoption verses TTC?

Feel free to PM me if you wish to. I have an adopted child and a birth child and love them both, and they have both presented with their own issues!

Good luck.

Hi @Italiangreyhound thanks so much for your kind message.

I've booked an appointment with the expensive, but highly recommended recurrent miscarriage professor, so I'm going to see what he suggests. I am definitely keeping an open mind re:adoption, and I'm think we will apply if we have more miscarriages (undecided the limit), but going to give a bit more time to exploring the fertility options first. I wrote my original post only a few days after we'd had the latest miscarriage as I was obviously really upset and desperate to find some kind of "solution" to a) fix our childlessness and b) to bring some kind of sense to it all - I had this idea that maybe God let us miscarry because he has some kids in care that he wants us to look after instead. And maybe that is still true, and we'll have more miscarriages then adopt, but I think now we've had a bit of time to process what happened, we want to explore the fertility options a bit further for now. There are a lot of potential tests/treatments that aren't available on the NHS that we haven't tried, so we'll consider those first. We're going to have a break from all of this for a few months, and take it from there. But we seem to be fairly quick at conceiving, so I may be back on here asking more adoption questions within the year if we've had another miscarriage or two.

Thank you all so much for your time and support :D

@Cosmos24 it sounds like you have a lot to think about.

Can I ask what faith you are? My husband and I are Christians. Personally, I find it difficult equating what happened in adoption and faith. In one sense I did feel our little bit was right for our family, but I also felt sad he had lost his first family.

Little boy...

@Italiangreyhound we're Christians too. Yeah I can imagine that is super tough to come to terms with and will probably be hard for him when he's old enough to ask those questions.

We've had to ask similar questions about why God has let us miscarry three times. But I do believe even though God allows these really difficult things to happen he is a) still good and b) still in control of our future, even if it isn't the future we would necessarily have chosen. It's definitely a very challenging time though.

Thinking of you. XXXXX