Anyone listened to the Exchange on Radio 4?

[HeyMrPostman99]

Just wondered if anyone else had listened to the episode where 2 adoptive mums talk about their shared experiences. They both had a really hard time with their daughters and one ended up disrupting. I know that lots of adopters are hit hard by the teenage years but I still found it surprising that for one family the problems (and I mean, really serious problems) all started when the girl was 10, and until then everything had been more or less fine. I've done a fair bit of reading around adoption but as someone who's hoping to start the process very soon I still found it rather daunting!

One of the mums had adopted two more children (as well as having two birth children) but they were barely mentioned - it would have been interesting to know how her experiences differed with them.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000ydmd

I didn’t hear the programme but it wouldn’t surprise me that issues starting showing themselves around age 10. Starting puberty, changes in cognitive awareness and social and emotional development all kick in around that age so difficulties that may not have been an issue previously suddenly come to the fore.

Its just a reminder of the uncertainty for kids who have had early trauma experiences.

That is very common. It is not just the regular brain changes every teenager struggles with - it is much more than that. Adopted teens have much more on their plates than birth teenagers. Plus, 50% of mental health issues are diagnosed by age 14, 75% by age 24.

Check out AUK's Adoption Barometer 2022 www.adoptionuk.org/Handlers/Download.ashx?IDMF=ebb3a36d-cc0d-45dd-aca9-7dd1d5dbbd23 They have got some statistics on teens.

I listened to this earlier today.

It is daunting. It's very sad what that mum and her daughter (and indeed the whole family) went through. I was very pleased to hear that the daughter still has a relationship with her family.

My partner and I are going to be adopting a little girl imminently. We are both aware of the ways it could go wrong, but I guess just hopeful that it won't happen to us. Maybe a bit in denial! I imagine adoption has changed a lot since the people in that show adopted - their daughters are both adults so must be 20+ years ago. I know post adoption support and schools are still not what they should be, but I feel like they have improved. And I know there are other places to go for support as well.

As ever with these things the stories that you hear are usually those where things are going badly.

I always hate to post here as I quite often feel like the bad fairy at Sleeping Beauty’s celebration! Just to say, that I’m 15 years into my adoption journey and we are currently one of those families teetering on the edge of disruption.

Honestly, we all want to be THE adoptive family who dodges the bullet; but our family’s future is mainly shaped by what has gone before us. I genuinely think it’s luck as to how things turn out now.

Oh, and I would argue that the support is lesser than before, thanks mainly to Government and LA cuts. No more effective children’s centres or HomeStart organisations. And the regionalisation of LA adoption services means everyone’s a number rather than a person.

Anecdotally, my mum’s colleague adopted 50+ years ago and her experiences of her adopted child stealing, lying and being aggressive and violent mirror mine almost exactly. There are decades between our adoptive experiences but the central themes remain that adopted children struggle with deep-seated shame-based behaviours that can have massive repercussions and ramifications for everyone connected to them.

@EmmatheStageRat I think prospective adopters need to know the truth. I love my kids to bits and would do it all again in a heartbeat, but one of them can be very challenging. We knew of the risks and that was our choice.

There is a limit to what good support can offer. When a child has a crisis, it is the child and the parents going through it. It might be helpful afterwards to talk things over with therapists, psychiatrists or sw, but when these professionals are most needed, they are usually not around.

Like you, I think it is luck. Children with a full score of risk factors can turn out to be easy to parent and high-flying, while others, with fewer risk factors, turn out to be very challenging. There is no way to know.

@EmmatheStageRat @Yolande7 Thank you for sharing your experiences and sorry to hear about the challenges you're facing. I think you're both right that it's luck how things turn out. I guess it's inherent human optimism that makes us believe we'll be the one who will dodge the bullet. DH and I are literally on the cusp of starting stage 1 and I've spent several years "doing my homework" yet something about the things I've read/heard recently has really given me pause for thought and made me question what we're doing - especially as we have birth children to consider. Better have a chat with our social worker I think.

@EmmatheStageRat If you don't mind answering, has your adoption always been challenging or was it relatively plain sailing until your child hit a certain age?

@Yolande7 I read the Adoption Barometer a while ago but I've just had another look. There are some very sobering statistics:
"72% of respondents with 13-18-year-old children had experienced violent or aggressive behaviour directed towards them by their adopted child during 2021"
And only 12% felt their family was "mostly doing well".
It's so easy when we start the process to just focus on the early years and think we'll deal with whatever comes when it comes.

@ScottishBeth Good luck with your little girl. Forewarned is forearmed! It's great that there are families willing to take on these future risks, I'm sure for the vast majority of children adoption is a better outcome than any alternative.

I understand that some adopted children have huge issues that are due to their birth family. But, I wonder how many parents of birth 13-18 year olds would also say they had experienced aggression or violence from their teens. Because I bet it would also be a lot, if we class shouting as aggression. Teenagers are very hard work no matter what start they've had in life.

I'm a fosterer but my two foster teens have been with me for 8 years. Sometimes I ring my mum to whinge about their behaviour and she reminds me that they're teenagers and actually a lot of what they're doing is just normal teenage behaviour. Sometimes I have to force myself to remember that birth families are also going through these issues and that not everything is necessarily because the kids are in care.

@HeyMrPostman99 , I’m glad that you took my initial post in the spirit in which it was intended, rather than considering me a doom-and-gloom merchant.

In answer to your question, I’m afraid that there is no easy, linear response. My DD came to me with a diagnosis of global developmental delay and question marks over a number of physical and mental issues (despite being ‘pitched’ as a no-needs, meeting-all-milestones baby). Yes, the health information was confusing and contradictory and I was so desperate that I didn’t want to jinx the process.

My DD is a bit of an outlier as she has defied her global developmental delay diagnosis and is now at a super-selective grammar school (she passed the 11+). Academically, she flourishes but socially and emotionally, she struggles massively.

I would say that my DD (can I just say that I’m currently transposing DD for ‘dickhead daughter’ rather than the MN ‘dear daughter’ as my tolerance for all the holiday stealing, aggression, violence and lying has diminished considerably over the past six weeks?) has presented challenges at all ages and stages. But it’s only since she hit puberty (at the age of 10) that things started to go awry. In her defence, she - totally unexpectedly - lost her sight at 11, due to her birth mother’s usage of heroin and methadone while pregnant. Mainly the methadone. To compound her woes, DD has only just (at the age of nearly 15) been diagnosed with ADHD and autism (with a PDA profile). It’s the PDA that is the absolute kicker.

Honestly, I think my DD could write one of those misery memoirs and literally no one would believe her story as it is so ridiculously far fetched. But 100pc genuine. She is an incredible human being to have survived and thrived but the everyday fallout for the rest of us (me - a single adopter - and a much younger sister) is massive. Indescribably so.

@AmyandPhilipfan I don't think that anyone would disagree that even the most average of teen can be hard work. But for most teens growing up with their birth family it is a phase they go through

what sets adopted young people apart is the sheer complexity of their problems and the long lasting impact of trauma and their early life experiences, including in utero.

I could tell the difference between my son's 'normal' teen behaviour and things that were coming from a more deep seated place. Both can run alongside each other and the normal teen stuff can often mask other things.

In terms of 'dodging the bullet' adoption is a risk. And, without minimising the severity of the issues that @EmmatheStageRat and others experience, for many adopters, problems are more intermittent and with time and theraputic support can often be resolved or at least reduced to managable levels.

My son is 18. I did that survey, I would have been one of the 12%. If I had completed it when he was 10, 11, 12, and 13 it would have been a different answer. By the time we got to 14 the worst was over and we were more into standard teen issues.
When you are in the thick of it, it can be overwhelming but most families come though it. Sadly not all do.

Emmathestagerat still thinks her daughter is a incredible person though. And thats the thing, by the time things deteriorate, they are yours, your child who you love.

We are a family that disrupted in the teen years. I know several other families that did so, or came so close it was a matter of luck.

The thing is, many of us have a good relationship with the child who left. Once the day to day difficulties ended the conflict eased. We were still there to advocate for our child, support them, give them a place to go where they were loved and cared for as long as they could handle it and then they could leave.

In some cases a return to care meant that they got the therapeutic support they needed, because the LA now had a legal responsibility towards them.

I also know some families where disruption ended the relationship, just to put an opposing view. But the majority managed to find a way to still be a family, still love each other, and still be part of each others lives.

In my case once I was no longer the 'oppressor' DD was able to appreciate to love and support I gave her. She is now in her 20s, and able to acknowledge that (to use her words!) she 'put me through hell' and I never gave up on her.

Like @Ted27 ,there were times I would have said my relationship with DD wasn't going to survive. She is now at university (a few years behind her peers, but who cares?) and has every prospect of a healthy, productive life, with good relationships and earning a good living.

Thanks for all the very thought-provoking replies. @EmmatheStageRat You're contending with so much, my heart goes out to you. Even the sight loss on its own is a lot more than most parents have to deal with. Wonderful that your daughter is academically gifted though - perhaps as an adult she might find her niche. I wonder whether more intelligent children are perhaps more likely to suffer in the teen years, maybe with more anxiety/questioning the world etc?
@Sigma33 It's great to know that for you disruption ended up being a positive rather than a negative move. I imagine some of the success lies in how you present it to the child, and making sure they know you're not giving up on them but rather finding a different way forward. So glad your daughter has a promising future ahead of her.
@Ted27 Thanks for sharing your experience too. Can I ask, do you know many other adopters with teens? If so how does your experience compare with theirs?

@Sigma33 great to hear things are so much more positive for your family

@HeyMrPostman99

yes I know loads of people with teens. I don't know anyone who has had a trouble free journey, outcomes vary tremendously. Some are like Sigma - kids have has a very difficult time, police involvement, birth family involvement, drugs, crime, etc etc but I can only think of two where the young person has not drifted back towards their adoptive family and have re-established a relationship.

I know a few exceptionally talented creative young people who are pursuing their talents at university.

I know lots of young people who have got their GSCEs, moved on to college, uni or work and are doing OK.

All our children have a unique set of circumstances - they may not follow the standard path, but most get there eventually, it may take them longer, they may have a few 'lost' years, they may meander about a bit but they find their way.

The most important thing to remember, for any parent really, is that their way may not your way. We all have our fantasy family, let go of that and deal with what you've got - it may not be what you imagined but its still positive.

its a bit like that Welcome to Holland poem which you either love or hate as a poem but the message is good . If you don't know the poem its about planning a holiday to Italy and you end up in Holland

I could tell the difference between my son's 'normal' teen behaviour and things that were coming from a more deep seated place. Both can run alongside each other and the normal teen stuff can often mask other things.

My DD is 11, puberty has hit her like a train but like @Ted27 i can usually tell what’s usual 11 year old tween behaviour and what’s deeper seated. I guess by the time they hit that stage you know them well, they’re mannerisms and what they look like when triggered. I’m bracing myself for the early teens, it’s a tougher time for many kids anyway, but adopted kids come with added complexities.

@Sigma33 , thank you, I really needed to read that post. I hear you 100pc. It’s the thing that has made the most sense to me in months and months. And it gives me hope that there can be a way forward that means life for the rest of us and proper support and help - at last - for my DD.

@EmmatheStageRat I am glad my post helped.