Getting to know APs: What questions are ok to ask?

[LazJaz]

Hello, I’m not sure if I’ve used the right title for my thread, but I’m here with the best intent to seek guidance from APs on how they may/may not feel comfortable bonding over parenting.
I apologize if the below comes across as hamfisted or poorly worded.

I have recently moved to a new work place, and in the team there is more than one AP of young children (children are now toddlers). I also have a toddler - as do many of the other colleagues. Like many toddler parents, I love to talk about my child and the wonderful ways that they make me laugh and exasperate me in equal measure.
I really enjoy bonding with other parents about their experiences, and I love sharing in their joy, and where appropriate holding space for their struggles.

I want to bond with these new colleagues over shared experiences, but I am also aware that our experiences may be very different. The last thing I would want to do is to offend any of the APs by either not asking an appropriate question and thus making an assumption, or asking the wrong question that was experienced as prying or insensitive.

I was brought up to believe that that it’s polite to display “acceptance” through a lack of curiosity (giving the impression that it’s all very run of the mill and unremarkable) but I now think that’s a position of unconscious bias and privilege. But equally I wouldn’t want to be thought of as unduly interested.
Or worse, to be perceived as accidentally gloating - because we don’t understand the additional challenges of adopting a child.

So, do you have anything that you wish new friends had/hadn’t said/asked?

Sorry if this is an inappropriate question to ask here. Thank you for any guidance.

I would hate to be asked about adoption matters by a colleague. I don’t tell anyone that my child is adopted, it’s none of their business. Of course, some people are much more open. However, I’d advise being guided by them. If they don’t mention, don’t ask them anything. And if it does arise and you ask them questions, be prepared that the answer might not be shared.
There are a million and one things to talk about in relation to kids apart from adoption so don’t overthink it.

Thank you for your response. I should have clarified that the colleagues in question volunteered this information within minutes of meeting me. Absolutely get that it’s not my business. I am not in the habit of asking colleagues about how they have built their families or other significant relationships.

To give a couple of examples - in one discussion I mentioned that I had become a parent during the height of the pandemic. A colleague said she had too. I said “what a year to have a baby, huh?” and her response was “well my children are adopted, so I don’t know what it was like in the hospitals”. I felt I had really put my foot in it, but what I meant was that the experience of becoming a first time parent in 2020 was maybe not what I had envisaged (and to kind of hint that it had cracked my head apart… now slowly mending) I clammed, and didn’t really know how to progress- I mumbles something about what I meant was the parenting not the “having” per say. I then didn’t know if it would be appropriate to ask her children’s ages - ultimately it turns out they are similar age to my child and came to her as babies, and we both had the experience of parenting babies during the early days of the pandemic.

Another colleague today mentioned that their child was adopted, and a toddler, and how long this child has been In their family.
We were talking about nursery rhymes and coco melon etc.
I was asked if my child attends nursery. I responded yes, now 5 days a week as I cannot take the salary cut as the primary earner, and I feel significant guilt. The colleague responded that they wouldn’t be able to do this for some time with “an adopted child” (their phrase).
I responded that each individual child is different, and that i feel fortunate that my child started asking me on Fridays “nursery please mummy,” so I knew he was ready, but every child is different. I’m now worried that I came across as trying to minimise their experience, which was not my intention.

This is what is behind my looking for guidance, I think I’m getting it wrong without meaning to.

I have to be honest, you are overthinking what is essentially office small talk and sound a little bit over the top. I wonder how you are coming across to your new colleagues.

What does 'holding a space for their struggles' even mean?

Firstly as a new colleague, you are not my friend. You may become a friend, but its most likely that you will be a colleague with whom I am friendly. I am quite open about being an adopter but what I choose to share with friends and what I choose to share with people at work are two entirely different things.

Framing it like that may help you with some boundaries.

Bear in mind that not everyone wants to be waxing lyrical about their children. Like many parents I come to work in part for some adult time.

Just use your common sense - why would it be inappropriate to ask about a child's age, or whether its a girl or boy - these are just ordinary everyday questions.

The one thing I am sure most adopters would agree on is that any questions about birth family or why the children are adopted is completely off limits, unless someone chooses to share that with you.
Be careful with the language you use, 'would you have liked children of your own' is red rag to a bull - the children are our own.

Similarly - 'real parents' when referring to birth family, We are the real parents.
I hope that helps - you sound well intentioned. Most adopters have perfectly ordinary lives most of the time. Yes sometimes we have additional things to deal with, sometimes its very challenging - but honestly my life is very average and nothing to write home about. Normal day to day chit is fine, adopters will tell you what they want you to know - no more and no less.

You sound well intentioned, but intense. I would find it odd someone actively trying to bond with me at work. Just offer me a tea on the tea round, and it'll be fine. Smalltalk- keep it light.

As others say: you are massively overthinking. Being a parent is being a parent, everyone is similar and everyone is different.

Don't refer to real parents or real children (versus adopted). Don't ask why they were adopted. Don't assume adopted children are damaged or hard work. Don't assume adopted parents struggle. Understand that they might have had different experiences and their kids are perhaps a bit more likely to experience challenges, so just avoid blunt assumptions like you should when discussing any child.

That's it. I think your main challenge will be talking to them like a normal person, not avoiding offence. Personally I'm quite happy to talk about adoption but everyone is different, so just use normal levels of thoughfulness.

I now think that’s a position of unconscious bias and privilege.

Priviledge is a tool of analysis for population groups. It's really dangerous to start applying it to indiviual situations (unless you use the original meaning of having specific concrete advantage) based on personal characteristics.

Imagine if you were writing this post on blackMN about how to talk to black parents about their struggle. That might give you an idea of the trap you seem at risk of falling into.

Thank you everyone, I really appreciate the time and your guidance.

I am a chronic over-thinker on basically every single issue!
You have all helped me greatly.

Thank you!

I think the previous answers have covered it.

The other thing not to say is 'oh all children do that' as quite often, no they don't. Or at least the don't to the extreme that the AC does. Better just to empathise.

Hi,

Firstly, thanks for reaching out! It means a lot that you are willing ro invest in this. I wishyou were one of my colleagues!

I would agree with others above in regards of don't panic! Being an adopter involves a lot of people asking a lot of questions (sometimes more or less sensitively), so it may be that she is just used to giving short precise answers. Sometimes it's better to be clear (read:blunt!) because hinting often means people don't pick up what you are putting down, and don't think about what they say.

I agree with people above in that generally avoiding comparisons of children to what you think is normal is good.

I was thinking about why she might have reacted to your comment about full time working, and was wondering whether maybe it's a touchy subject. As she said, you need longer with adopted children, and it's a commitment, especially if there is a job you love. Giving up work, going part time etc means that you know you will have to sacrifice this, and there is a grief associated with that, which comes with defensiveness and frustration. Knowing that other colleagues have the ability to go back to work full time, and she may not for the next 18 years because her child can't tolerate child care or school or whatever might be really hard to accept. The loss of professional identity, overwhelmed from being with the child, jealousy that someone else is being promoted, guilt that she values that AND her child... its complicated.

The topic you asked about was questions to ask to promote a positive relationship, so in addition to water cooler talk (who doesn't like to gossip about Love Island?!), if family comes up I would possibly pursue a couple of the ideas below:

Family traditions that they are establishing (pancakes on Sunday, football games, arts and crafts after school etc)
Focus on similarities between yourself and your child in non genetic ways- "Oh, my child copies his sassy look from his mother" rather than "well that's from his mother's side"
Good local amenities for children
Weird hobbies or interests kids have

If you do want to talk about adoption itself:
Depending on how close you ultimately become, she might want to discuss the process of adoption. I know lots of people I've spoken to about it are shocked by the length and level of it, as well as the myriad factors involved. Some people don't like to talk, as it can be personal, but an interest in the process itself rather than the child might be something to consider.
Usually curiosity with an available out is good- so saying things like "Oh, that's interesting... i don't know much about that" or "hmm, I hadn't really thought about...." "is there a difference between adoption in the USA and the UK?" Etc
A general comment on films or media- "since you mentioned adoption, I've realised it's mentioned everywhere!" (It really is!)

I know you haven't said any of these, but for future reference, these are things that might be sensitive and require a little more thought:
Birthday and Christmas celebrations- lots of AC find these hard
Age related expectations
Obviously the "real" mum comment (notafictionalmum on Insta is an interesting follow if you are interested!)
Your experiences of knowing a neighbor's uncle's cousin who adopted- all adoptions are vastly different, and it's hard to know that you are also being discussed in these terms
Being overly positive and cheerful about adoption, or responding to stories of child abuse lies Kyrell Matthews with comments like if only he had been adopted- it's not helpful, and you won't know the child's birth story, so avoid drawing parallels
Anything about how lucky the child is. If they were lucky, their birth parents would have been able to keep them safe and parent them well.

Finally, I would say that if you know you have privilege, you should consider how to use if for the better. The person probably doesn't want to be the flag waver for adoption, but just like being LGBT, often if you are out and open you suddenly become the go-to person. Maybe you could consider, if asked about company policy or someone else makes a comment as above, taking responsibility to shift the conversation or challenge something without being prompted by your colleague?

I hope I haven't been too OTT in these, and obviously play it by ear, but I hope these are useful signposts.

My personal biggest trigger point in the year is Mothers Day.

You sound a bit overly keen to bond with mums at work, we’ll intentioned but honestly I don’t want to be befriended on the basis of me being a mum.

Just talk to them as you would anyone else. Most of the time folk wouldn’t be talking about their birth stories, or fertility issues etc in the office, so adoption talk isn’t really appropriate either unless led by the adopter.

Folk might talk about the funny things their kids do, the frustrations of trying to get out to work in the morning or a hundred other day by day experiences which are common however you came to be a parent. Try not to offer “helpful” advice unless it’s asked for, don’t fall into the “oh my child does that/all kids do that” trap because it’s very dismissive. You’re not their therapist, so you don’t need to “hold space” for them and their struggles, just chat as you normally would to someone you barely know.

Holidays, Christmas, birthdays can all be hard going (one of my child didn’t do a Santa list for 4 years, wouldn’t say what they wanted for birthdays etc and those days were characterised by very high levels of anxiety - so asking me if I was looking forward to her birthday, or talking about the magic of children at Christmas wasn’t helpful although it’s “normal” parenting chat).

What are you happy to share about your child in those circumstances, do that. Just ease back a bit on trying to bond, and if you do put your foot in it, apologies and move on.

Hi everyone, I wanted to thank you all for taking the time to respond so frankly, with nuance.
And also to thank you for being really perceptive. Several of you seem to have captured what I was trying to communicate far better than I did, thank you!

@Torvy thank you - def not ‘OTT’, I really value your clarity in your extensive answer. Great “sign posts”
It’s also interesting that you mentioned that the “your neighbour’s uncle’s cousin” isn’t relevant. One of the deeper motivations behind this thread is that I have two cousins who were adopted, and I have always felt since I was a child that the way that the way my parents spoke about everything connected to this was very othering, despite good intentions. I don’t want to repeat this pattern.

To everyone who said I’m overthinking- yep. Bang on. And I am an equal
Opportunities over thinker…I overthink about almost everything every moment of the day. No interaction is too small..! 😂 Overthinking is second guessing yourself. Many of the things i thought might be written in this thread were highlighted. I have learned I can trust myself more.

I was also pulled up for maybe coming across as too intense, too keen to “bond” (I think I should have just said “build relationships with” or “make friends”). I have been called intense before - but usually by my own parents, because this is something I try really hard to mask in public, and that probably means it amps up in “safe” spaces like anonymous Internet forums.But this is a very fair observation. I’m doing it now by being overly earnest for pete’s sake

There was discussion about the difference between friends and colleagues.
I’m not running around at work saying “omg, please be my friend,” Equally, it’s a workplace where the people genuinely are outside of work friends, and where on my first day someone said she was “honoured to hold space for me to share” (hence my use of the phrase … but I think I really should have just said “listen without offering advice”). There is a lot of talk of “bearing witness to,” We don’t have values but instead “chemical elements”….You get the picture!

Anyway, having leaned in to my over-earnest, over-intense personality….
One last thank you - I’m really touched that you took the time to respond!

I think it is fantastic that you are taking the time and trouble to think about this, and I think the comments here along the lines of "don't try to be my friend" reflect the fact that different professions and work places have different cultures when it comes to making friends. In my work place people made friends with each other and there was a lot of socialising outside work, were bridesmaids for eachother, eventually did baby things together, so in some places it is normal. It is also normal in my place of work to know a lot about each other's personal lives, people are mostly very open, trustworthy. I can see that would be an anathema to some of the posters here though. So it depends on where you work.

I think that adopters will vary hugely from person to person too, to make it harder for you.

I do also subscribe to the idea that it takes a village to raise a child, how you perceive and interact with the parents will have an impact on the adopted children involved. Not all adopters will agree with that.

It might be worth looking into the varying ways adoptees feel by they way, as you may well work among adopted adults without them having told anyone. Some adopted adults have very complicated (or not so complicated) feelings about their adoption and family. Some may have had siblings who were adopted, and have complicated (or not so complicated) feelings about that. That might also give you insight in relation to how to interact with your adopter colleagues

What a minefield, eh?!

I think it is a shame that you have been called intense to be honest, in real life and here. I would see the fact that you feel strongly and think deeply is positive, I wouldn't see it as intense or over thinking. IME when people call others intense or overthinking what they mean is that they are just not interested in what you are thinking (and are more interested in what they themselves think) so I'd just ignore it.

I hope your parents only said it to protect you and that they do care however.

You sound lovely, I'd stay as you are! Good luck with your new colleagues.

I also think that something to think about is that when people say they don't like certain words to be used or they see them as red flags, or they are sensitive around certain events which are difficult, they are in fact joining other people in on their struggles, so there is a bit of conflict in some of the posts here.

@forgetnotribe

I don’t see anyone saying ‘dont try and be my friend’ or any sense that work friends would be ‘anathema’ to anyone.

Just don’t presume friendship just because you are a parent, or just because you work in the same place.
Of course its totally normal for work colleagues to socialise and to know about each others lives. It just takes time. I’m sure you didnt ask a new starter to be your bridesmaid - they would be long standing friendships.

I have friends for life whom I met at work. None are adopters, one doesn’t have children, none of us had partners let alone babies when we first met at work.
I am friendly with most people in my office. I share more with some than others, as do they. Its been fabulous to get back to the office and see people again, and yes to socialise.
But I have no friends in work or otherwise where the friendship is based on us having children. Other things drew us together - gardening, cats, music, football.
So for me new colleague is just that, a new colleague, I will be welcoming and friendly, friendship may well follow, but its possible to just pootle along as office colleagues.

I thought I'd just share that the best (and only to be honest!) friend I've made at my son's school is a single mum to one son. We make a slightly unlikely pair as I'm 18 years older than her but we get on well and I can be myself with her. I really didn't care (or judge) that she was single. Most important was that we get on, she is kind and an amazing mum.