Primary school choices

[Jannt86]

My dd starts school in 2022 so starting to think about schools and currently it seems to be between 2. One is consistently ofsted outstanding. I don't really fully understand the 'league tables' but 100% of their kids acheive their expected grades and they consistently achieve well above the national average. They are a tiny school having only about 90 pupils so not even a class full a year. Reading between the lines in their ofsted report this school seems like a lovely, community orientated place where the pupils are consistently happy. My only fear would be that it's 'too small' The other school is much bigger, about 450 pupils, and quite recently 'requires improvement' on ofsted but since been taken over by a new head and now 'outstanding' and also seems to get very good results. It's quite recently been made an 'academy' but I'm not sure what the significance of this is really. I also really love that there's a specific section on their website about attachment and they clearly have very slick behaviour and SENCO policies

My dd comes across as on the whole very happy and able and no major issues are showing themselves just yet. The only thing I'd say is that she can be very shy and 'avoidant' at times and this can lead to defient behaviour and a reluctance to engage with things. She is only 3 though and is improving by the day with this. However I do feel that anxiety may become an issue in the future.

What have people found ITO school sizes? It seems that my 2 choices are at extremes of the spectrum. Too small may mean she doesn't get as much exposure to other kids etc and transition to secondary is harder but too big and she might get a bit 'swallowed up'. Have people found that smaller schools are better for kids who are shy or does it not make much difference? I'm obviously going to go and see both schools but just wondering what people's experiences have been like? Any insight into the above choices would be really appreciated. If you've got to the end of this essay thanks for reading xx

90 is very very very small, only 12 or so per year group.
450 isn't really that large, it is 2 form entry by my calculation.

Two sets of comments, one general and one adoption related.

General.
I would say that 450 is a far better size than 90. 90 doesn't give enough scope for friends, especially if one's child is a bit 'different' or quirky. It means fewer extra curricular opportunities. It means mixed age teaching. It may seem lovely and small and nurturing at 4 but could be extremely stifling at 10/11. It will be lovely that everyone will know everyone, and possibly very nurturing and family feel.
450 is approx 2 form entry, so 60 children in each year group. That gives more scope for friendships and extra curricular, and working in groups of similar ability. They are likely to have more experience of a range of children. If well run, the child shouldn't be 'lost' in the system.

Adoption
A school with mixed intake in terms of backgrounds will possibly have more experience of kids with emotional needs than a 'nice middle class' one. Similarly y6 results may reflect more the 'intake' than the actual teaching of the school. So just because a school gets better results it doesn't mean it is the better school.
You need a school that appears to understand that adopted children can have different needs. That the behaviour policy may need to be flexible. They has emotional support and a strong SENCO. Where a child with 'outbursts' will be supported not ostracised (by school or other parents). Where the PPP money is spent appropriately.

Academy is just a funding/business model (run independently or part of a group, separate from the LA). It doesn't imply it will be better or worse than other schools.

Based just on what you wrote, I'd go for the larger of the two. Others may disagree. You must visit, and talk to the head and the SENCO.

(My youngest has just come out the other end of school. My 2 went to a single form entry primary and struggled to find good friends, only really getting there at 9 form entry secondary.)

I’d agree with everything @UnderTheNameOfSanders has said, I’d look at the school and it’s ethos, talk about how they support children with complex needs, what’s their understanding of adoption and it’s ongoing impact on children, how are they in terms of diversity eg is the student body predominantly homogeneous in terms of race, ability, neurodiversity.

I chose a school in a very mixed catchment, with a significant number of children with ASN. The teaching staff are used to working with difference, they are flexible and adapt to the needs of the child which means they’ve agreed to accommodations that might otherwise have been challenging had the school been more rigid. The school had a roll of 429, the head teacher knows all the kids by name and the teachers have very warm, caring relationships with the children.

I would go and meet the SENCO in each and see which you feel is right. Mine go to a very small school and its so so lovely and supportive I am so glad its so small. All the children know each other, all the teachers know everyone, its so friendly and supportive. Their SENCO is brilliant. I would say you can only know when you meet the SENCO and look around.

I think that if the culture of the school is genuinely kindness, acceptance, no bullying etc from the top down and they have an understanding of trauma or are open minded about learning and you think that your dc would thrive in an environment where learning is seen as important, then I'd start with the small school. Whether there are children who your dc would click with is a matter of chance, there could be 3 at the small school and none at the big school and I think if friendship groups don't work then to move a child is ok early on.

A bigger school doesn't necessarily mean that the culture or understanding of SN will be better. The right small school will be very supportive. Also if the friendship groups are good I am not sure I agree that it is stifling at 10/11, especially as there are lots of exciting activities and clubs dc can do outside school at those ages. Also, if there is a change of head at any school at any time, there will be changes, so you can't guarantee and particular school will stay ok for your dc.

I think it is a matter of getting to know the heads and the culture seeing beyond the glossy brochures and initial impressions. I think culture is paramount as all children will learn better in a kind environment.

Then again, if the first school is all about performance, that might be tough for a child for whom coping with emotions is difficult.

Thanks all. My gut is that either would be a good fit. Both are graded as outstanding but don't seem 'stuffy' or pressurising about it and seem to really understand that enjoying learning is the key to success. They are both about the same distance from us. Perhaps I'll just go with the one that's uniform colour brings out her eyes better (100% JOKE in case anyone doesn't realise lol) I think I will go see both and see what I think. It may well come down to gut instinct x

A uniform which brings out eye colour is in fact very important according to latest research.

(lighthearted)

It may well come down to gut instinct x

It may well, and I think that’s ok when faced with two equally suitable schools - your sense of how the school feels, the reception you receive from staff and the feel of the place are important. Your child will be there for 7 years, it’s important the environment feels ok and that you start from a place of feeling good about sending her.

And don’t under estimate the power of a decent uniform - fewer fights in the morning if the child feels good in what they’re wearing (remembering the god awful uniform which included an air hostess style neck scarf in one of my primary schools)

Jumping in to give an adopted adult’s perspective. I would be looking for as wide a cross section of children as possible. Adopted kids will feel different from their non-adopted peers. This may not be visible or even articulated by the child but at some point they will.

A very small school which attracts all its pupils from very similar backgrounds may lead to your child feeling even more different.

I’m looking at schools for my boy too for 2022 (unless I defer, which I probably won’t, as he’s big and bright for his age although he’ll have only just turned 4).

As part of the adoption process I chose a local school that uses its PP money to employ attachment specialists for the kids. The school itself is huge (not a plus for my son who will get overwhelmed), Ofsted outstanding, 15 mins walk for us and always oversubscribed. It’s always been top of my list but I now need to go and see all the schools before I choose so the thoughts above are very helpful. Thanks for starting the thread, OP, and for the subsequent comments from everyone else. Food for thought.

Another one here with a child due to start in 2022 so I'm also thinking about schools. I'm planning on arranging visits this term and as others have recommended above, talking to the SENCo and trying to get a 'gut feeling' for the place. I've worked in a few schools so know how different they can be. I think seeing the school from the parents' perspective is going to take some getting used to for me!
From my experience working in schools, I'd say that those with nurture or SEN units tend to be more accommodating of differing needs. Welcoming, supportive head teachers who genuinely love making a difference for children (the sort that know every child and staff member by name and recognise parents) count for a lot!

Some questions which might help gauge how flexible a school is:

• how do you cope with pupils whose photos can't appear on internet/papers?
• how do you identify & adapt/avoid potentially sensitive topics (eg bringing in baby photos in yR, family trees, personal timelines, NSPCC assemblies)

The answers you want are something along the lines of

• oh that's quite common so we do X
• we would talk to you about what you think is best

You don't want anything that implies you are awkward or a pain or your child would just have to fit in.

I'd be concerned about the finances of a 90 pupil school, to be honest - the only way they can be making that work is composite classes (so it's an intake of 12/13 a year, so it wouldn't be unlikely for that to be only a total of 4 mixed classes or even possibly 3). The Head may well be teaching a lot, and there is unlikely to be any funds for enrichment etc. if there are local schools that are undersubscribed, it may be in danger of being amalgamated.

Update; Went to see the smaller school and tbh there were a couple of red flags. The head showed us round and it's clearly a nice close knit and wholesome school. However it's TINY with years reception,1 and even some of Y2 being in the same class. There may even be as few as 2/3 kids of the same gender in a year. Also the head said a few things I didn't really like. She was explaining the selection system and she literally suggested that the school might not be best for a physically disabled child as the building is cramped. Probably true but still I thought we were meant to accomodate disabilities not the other way round. My child is totally able bodied but still.... Also I had to question her about accomodating kids who are LAC and she was sort of 'oh well we accomodate all children if they feel they'll be best here' I'm probably being a bit sensitive but the impression I got was definitely that she'd rather just have a nice dillegent kid who can just get on and learn. It's also so claustrophobic that I can't see a child in distress even being able to find the physical space to regroup if they get stressed. She also kindof admited that if appeals were made for places that she picks and chooses which she's prepared to allow. Maybe perfectly normal but felt wrong... I think it's a nice school with lovely kids but it seems like it's quite a naive school which isn't very experienced dealing with 'real world' problems. Going to see the larger school in a few weeks so hopefully it's a better fit. Just goes to show that it's so important to actually visit...

It sounds like it was definitely worth a visit to find out how unlikely they are to put inclusion as a top priority! Sounds like academic performance and keeping their outstanding label is all that matters!

I've been fortunate enough to speak to some educational psychologists and adoptive parents recently. Suggestions for questions to ask when visiting are:
Are your school staff trained in attachment/early trauma?
How do you spend pupil premium plus?
How do you support children with settling in and transitions within school? (Change of year/staff/moving to assembly/dining hall etc.)
How do you support children with periods of unstructured time?

We have our first school visit this week. Did you take your little one in with you when you visited OP?

Thanks for that. Those are some really good questions. I didn't even get around to asking them with this first school because it was obvious that they literally have virtually no children with such needs. I suppose I should have known this given that in their last SATs results 100% acheived the expected grade.... I didn't take my daughter to this show around but I think I'll see if I can take her to the next one

@Jacketpandbeans These are good questions. I am having a tour of a school next week and will use these.

I had not considered taking my little one so will give that some thought.

'oh well we accomodate all children if they feel they'll be best here'

This is how some schools act to discourage kids they don't want from applying. At least she's being upfront about it I suppose.

She also kind of admited that if appeals were made for places that she picks and chooses which she's prepared to allow. Maybe perfectly normal but felt wrong

That is all kinds of wrong. It should be an independent appeal board that deals with this. But I can see a situation whereby they might say 'we don't really have the skills....' again to put people off.

Which of course is working, as presumably you have now ruled it out.

Taking your DC round on tours has pros and cons.

Pros you can see if the staff interact with her, how comfy she seems etc.
Cons you may find you get distracted by her needs, or can't ask everything you want, or have to cut short if she gets tired etc.

Yep it did feel very wrong. I forgot the worst part she said which was something along the lines of 'we've had the occasional disabled child but they ended up going to a different school after a couple of years' ... Really!? I think it's one of those schools that is probably perfect if you don't have any difficulties but if you do I really think they'd struggle or even try and encourage you to move which probably explains their excellent academic record. I just hope I like the other school more lol. I know what you mean about taking your child although my 3YO is quite a pensieve little girl so I think it would help her to see it and rationalise that she'll be going there if that makes sense x

Once places are allocated most primaries do transition visits in the summer term. Our also did home visits in the first week of the September term.
Unless you know which school for definite (ie you have chosen) you may want to consider the risk of her liking a school you decide against (or having too long to 'worry' about a move?)
But you know your child best.

We have 2 secondary schools in our town. One ends up with far more children with SEN/EHCPs, because in my opinion, the other school discourages certain types of pupils from applying, saying the 'fit' may be better elsewhere...

@UnderTheNameOfSanders

We have 2 secondary schools in our town. One ends up with far more children with SEN/EHCPs, because in my opinion, the other school discourages certain types of pupils from applying, saying the 'fit' may be better elsewhere...

Such blatant discrimination just shouldn't be allowed but then tbh I'd rather they just admit that they're not an inclusive school rather than give my child a half-arsed education. Being like this will only be doing their other kids a disservice too as they'll be missing out on invaluable life lessons in diversity and tolerence. Their loss really....

[quote Adoptodad]@Jacketpandbeans These are good questions. I am having a tour of a school next week and will use these.

I had not considered taking my little one so will give that some thought.[/quote]
We're trying to decide whether to take our little one with us so interested to hear what others do on school visits.

Undertheneofsanders makes good reference to the pros and cons of taking them.

UnderTheName's points are very valid.

Haven't taken mine as they're either during the day when he is at nursery or evening when he will be extremely tired.

Having done two visits, been very distracting trying to take in all that's being said when children have been crying, running, screaming throughout. But have sucked it up thinking I'm glad it's not mine.

On the other hand, the head teacher took the distractors out to play which was a very nice touch in the school that is top of my list. And that was one of the factors amongst all the good responses they gave me.

@Jacketpandbeans

In the end I did not take my LO as UnderTheNameOfSanders had some very good points. I liked the school but has some small concerns. I have another school to se in a few weeks time.

Pupil Premium plus: Goes into a central pot and pay for wages mainly and subsidies uniforms for some children who need it.

Adoption in General: Children are just children we treat them the same.

And one thing that I found odd but then again I have never done this before. The head who was lovely and experienced did not once ask a question about our LO. I would have expected a bit of, what do they like to do etc even if just to be social.