International adoption vs egg donation

[Lazycow]

I know these are very different things but I am struggling to decide which would be best for our family.

As a bit of background I am 42 (soon to be 43) years old and dh is 39 years old. We have a much loved and beautiful 3 year old ds but would very much like to have another child (or even more ). We have had fertility tests and although dh's sperm is fine, my results were not good. It is not just my age, I am quite infertile anyway (Ds was pretty much a little miracle I think) and my age just adds to this. The fertility clinic I went to (UCH) did not recommend ivf or in fact any treatment other than egg donation.

Given the shortage of egg doners in this country, we would need to go to Spain or Washington (they have a partnership with clinics in these countries) for this. The cost of this would be in the region of £10,000-£15,00. We could raise this money by re-mortgaging (we have a very small mortgage so this would not be a real problem)However, if we did this and the egg donation ivf did not work (a very real possibility) then we would have a great deal of difficulty paying the costs associated with an international adoption as well.

We have looked into the possibility of UK adoption but we do feel that the likelihood of getting a younger child is quite small and much as I'd like to be able to say I'd be happy to adopt an older child (over say 2-3 years old) I know that in reality, they often come with incredibly difficult problems and I'm not sure how well dh and I would cope with this or how fair it would be to ds.

I also know that international adopton has issues and that many children from abroad may also have severe attachment issues and many other problems, however I feel that with a child younger than 2 years old there is more chance that problems (if they exist) could be helped.

My dilemma is therefore which of these options we should commit to now. Ideally I'd like to try one round of doner egg ivf but if that doesn't work to go to adoption but the cost of this would be just so high!! .

If I could be sure of getting baby/toddler be happy to go straight to adoption (though dh is slighly less happy about this).I just want another child really and it does not have to be 'biologically mine at all.

In fact I had pnd with ds and had a lot of trouble bonding with him at first so, never having had that 'instant bond' would not miss it.

Having ds means however that I would also like to try and ensure that the child we adopt has as much chance as possible of being able to attach to us.

Does anywone have any experience of this/advice?

I have to go and pick up ds now but will check in later

I think you're too old to do it in this country, but have you thought about the possibility of surrogacy abroad (most common in the States I think).

It's not impossible to get a adopt a young child in the UK, but there is a lot of competition, especially if you are a white couple. We adopted ds from our borough when he was just under 11 months, he is now 3.6 yrs and we are currently being assessed for a second adoption. However we are a mixed asian/white couple and the borough has a lot of mixed asian/white children so we are very fortunate. Perhaps you could go to an open evening at your local authority and see what they have to say.

TBH the procedure was so awful the first time around that we nearly decided not to adopt a second time and if we hadn't been too old I would have tried hard to persuade dh to consider surrogacy although he finds the idea a bit icky. Even adopting from abroad can be pretty taxing (although equally it can sometimes be straighforward). Some friends of ours had to spend 6 months in India waiting for their daughter when the orphanage they were adopting her from was accused of taking bribes and had to be investigated. Kewcumber's blog about adopting her son from Kazakhstan is a very good read if you can find it (hopefully she will see this and come give you a link).

Best of luck whatever you do.

Thanks Bran

The open evening sounds like a good idea. I'll look into that.

I hadn't thought of surrogacy. I can carry a pregnancy myself (or I should be able to as I did with ds) it is just I don't produce good eggs and probably never did really and it looks like I am already well on the way to being menopausal as well which is slightly earlier than usual (though not abnormally so) so my chances of conceiving using my own eggs are pretty much zero.

I was thinking of undergoing ivf using a doner egg and carrying the pregnancy myself, fertility clinics will treat you with this technique until a much older age than with normal ivf.

Why is it so hard to get donor eggs in this country?

because the recipient is not paid for it, Yorky, only her expenses are covered.

also, an egg donor doesn't have anonymity anymore in the UK.

so donors tend to be more common in other countries.

Very difficult choice.

I'm not sure but I think that for international adoption in most countries your local ss will hve to prepare some assessments on your family. This makes me think it would be worthwhile to approach them to be assessed for adoption locally with the knowledge that you can always be starting the ball rolling abroad. If locally they say "yes, you'd be great adopters and we'd be able to place a young child with you then you've lost nothing and saved yourself a potential £10-15k.

Are there clinics in the UK where you could do a sort of trade, you get donor eggs, your dh donates sperm? Would this make the potential fertility costs any easier to bear?

it's an impossible choice for anyone else to make and only you know the state of your finances.

I had 3 IVF and no more becasue I knew that I could not afford to go on and do an international adoption if I had any more IVF. I did briefly consider egg and embryo donation but for financial reasons decided that a near 100% certainty of an adoption was a better choice for me.

Intercountry adoption is tough and more drawn out than IVF but is still a more certain option than any form of IVF (even egg donation).

You are right that the chances of significant bonding or attachemetn problems are much less with a child under two, though adopting a child from an institution does increase the risk of physical and developmental delays. Much to do with the quality of care in the orphanage.

It is true that most people don't get that instant rush of love but over a lifetime that doesn;t seem such a big deal to me.

Do you have any specific questions that might help you decide.

My website is www.simplesite.com/journeytokaz but I did have an unusual journey and chose and unusual country.

PS - My boy is 2 today

Thanks Kewcumber

That is real food for thought. In many ways I kept thinking about the difficulties involved with international adoption but as you say it nearly 100% certain (as long as you go through the appropriate procedures) whereas egg donation is a much riskier option.

I really have less problem with the risk of developmental delays (though of course I would prefer not to have to deal with those) than with a child who cannot attach to us because of their background.

I think maybe one of the reasons I'd want to try egg donation is that I think dh would prefer this option. I think he worries about being able to love another child as much as he does ds. Unlike me dh and ds bonded instantly and were a love fest from day 1.

I on the other hand have experienced (with willingness on my side and need along with a fierce desire to attach from ds) how love can grow into something enormous and almost overwhelming just from day to day contact.

I like you think the 'instant bond' thing can be overrated in the context of a whole lifetime, but then I suppose I would say that .

I am assuming that a first step in international addoption would be to start the ball rolling in the UK first and then to look into the international side, though I suppose that would depend on whether UK approval is required in the country we decide on.

I do have a couple of questions:

1 Do you know whether being accepted for adoption by one UK authority means you are automatically accepted by another?
The reason I ask is that dh has recently applied for a new job and if he gets it we will move to the other side of the country. Would it be best to wait until we move before applying to be approved in the UK?

If this is the case and we decide to go for adoption I would then probably need to start looking at the international side first.

2 How did you decide which country to adopt from and what their rules and regulations are? Are there any organisations or websites that give information about this?

I had a quick look at your website you certainly had an interesting journey but I'm sure it now feels much more than worth it!!

Happy birthday to your beautiful ds - He is just gorgeous. It all goes so fast doesn't it?

you will need approval form this country whereever you go, you will not get an entry visa for the child back into the UK without having been approved by the DCFS (I thinkthats what they're called now)

1 - for domestic adoption I think once you are approved as adoptive parents your panel approval with work anywhere in the country. I'm sure moving part wya adds complications but not insurmountable ones. You would probably need to get your whole home study done and pass panel in one council. For an overseas adoption you are approved for a specific country - you then have a certificate of eligibility for that country doesn;t matter where you subsequently live. You do need to update your home study annually if you are not yet matched but another council can do that.

2 - I did a massive amount of research mostly on american sites google "adoption and the name of the country" and it will come up with a lot of american agencies who will give detials like the country requirements and age of childrne available. You need to take them with a pinch of salt as they are businesses "selling" their services and rarely give the downside. Once you have a shortlist of countries you should contact either Overseas adoption Helpline (google them they have a phone number) or OASIS and get contact detilas for a person from each of those countries. Talk to people who have adopted from that country network on the web as much as you can, join loads of yahoo groups until you've made your mind up.

I chose Kazakhstan because it has a good reputation of caring for the children, childrne under one are still available, it was a country I found interesting (you will have a kind of relationship with that country for the rest of your life so you need to be able to have some kind of interest initially, though you will find it will grow once you have a child from there).

Your husbands concerns are perfectly normal - I can't imagine loving any child as much as I love DS. Its not really to do with teh instant bond butteh intensity of the bond which you can;t imagine replicating. Many parents of more than one have said the same to me about their bio child. Obviousy its important he has his say but he needs to make his decision based on the realistic chances of IVF sucess vs adoption. How devastated will he be if he never has anotehr child or your DS never has a sibling - next to that how important is it to him to have a biological child. Ask him if he feels more comfortable with the idea of an adopted girl, many men are more concerned about non-bio boys than girls.

Good luck - these thigns are never cut and dried.

lazycow - just to add, you cant run the two options concurrently I'm afraid. SS will require you to have stopped all infertility treatment first before you start any adoption assessment

some even require a waiting period i beleive....

Thanks everyone

Kewcumber - Your post is so helpful thanks a lot, it all seemed so overwhelming at first but I think I can see the beginning of a plan now.

KristinaM - I did know that which is why the decision is even more complicated

Was the £10k - £15k cost quoted by UCH? Reason I ask is it sounds a bit high from other stuff I've read, well for Europe anyway. (We need ICSI so I've come across quite a lot of info on egg donation).

Given that cost is a factor then I think it'd be a good idea to get a clear idea of overseas egg donation. There are other countries doing ED such as Czech Republic and my understanding that the cost is more like £3k - £5k per cycle. Plus you have a good chance of having frosties too.

If you go for the ED route you could have delivered in less time that it would take you just to get approved for adoption. ED pg rates are generally very, very high.

www.fertilityfriends.co.uk or www.ivfconncections.com have got great boards on this subject.

Also regarding the need to have stopped fertility tx before embarking on adoption, how would SS in this country find out if you self-refer to a clinic overseas?

you can cover up the fertility treatement sometimes. However having done both I would strongly recommend you don't try to do both at the same time even if it is possible. It would drive you insane. Adoption preparation is every bit as intense although in a differnt and more positive way as IVF.

I applied for adoption about 2 weeks after my final IVF attempt failed and they never asked me about fertility treatment though many councils do (and as Kristina says some expect a reasonable gap), but it took about 6 months for a social worker to be allocated. In retrospect it was blessed breathing space going from the trauma of the IVF into the trauma of the preparation course.

The course is designed to make sure as far as possible that you are prepared for the worst that could happen so you cover some pretty gruelling cases and examples (all true) and your moods swing up and down almost as much as they do on the blasted IVF drugs.

It really isn't easy. It is, however, the best thing I ever did. It was worth the heartache and (physical, mental and financial!) pain of IVF just because I know if I hadn't done it I would have a different DS. No doubt lovely but not my* DS.

sorry to hijack lazycow - belated happy birthday to little D, KC. Our DS2 is two in a few days...and guess what, he still cant say much more than " bus bus"

re adoption preparation - i suspect they forgot to ask KC about infertility treatment because she is single, but you ( lazycow) woudl probably get a grilling . As deux says, if you self refer abroad then they shouldn't knwo but if your Gp is involved at all then it will come up in your medical report and they will stop the whole process ...just to warn you

i know of a couple who were just at the matching stage with a toddler and she conceived ( not through treatmnt, just a miracle ). They were overjoyed and told Ss straight away. they placed the toddler elsewhere, took the family off their books and, sadly, she miscarried .
If teh couple hadnt found out about the pg until later on, the adopted child would have been placed with them and there would have been a three year gap between the children anyway.

re chances of adopting a baby/toddler here in the uk....i suspect they are very very slim for you, if you are a white couple aged 40 & 43.A a " baby" in SS terms is up to 2 years.

IMO the " risks" of adoption vs your bio child are not about not having that "instant bond". They are about all the risk factors that you don't know about / cant control and which have lifelong and irreversable effects, such as pre natal exposure to alcohol and drugs, learning difficulties and mental health problems and a background of neglect and abuse. Even if you adopt a 2yo, they will have had an extremely traumatic history

mind you, its easy for me to tell you about the potential problems of adoption, but as i have no experience of fertility treatment i have nothing to compare it with

Kewcumber, OTOH, has experince of both. But her adoption experience is very recent & her child very young so she has no first hand experience of the severe difficulties that some adopted children (and their families) have

Ok, heres my tuppence worth - i think your best (only?) adoption option is to adopt overseas. But this route may be slower and more expensive than assisted conception. Overseas adoption may have a better "success rate" as long as you can afford it and stick it out...its not unknown for families to give up after years as it all becomes too much for them. especailly is one partner is not so keen.

But thats " success" in the sense of - if you don't give up you will probably get a child in the end IYSWIM. But it will probably be a toddler ie over one.

your best chance of a healthy young baby is to grow your own, if you can

not that belated Kristina as we're having his party today so I didn;t make much of Thursday!

DS also has a few limited words - however he now says by-bye properly which he says to everyone virtually immediately

My commetns about problems in childrne under 2 were really about intstitutionalised children who don't tend to have the neglect/abuse issues but do come with a differnt set of problems which can be minimised by getting them as young as possible