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Adoption

Here are some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on adoption.

LA are demanding a reference from someone who won't provide one.

15 replies

SonnyWinds · 23/04/2021 15:34

My husband and his sister are non-contact with his mother because she was abusive during their childhoods. His mother is twice divorced and my husband has a good relationship with both his father and step father and also with his stepmother. He has a good relationship with his aunt too.

His relationship with his grandparents was up and down - they were fully under the control of his mother which led to issues when my husband was "disloyal". Being "disloyal" included going to university when she told him he wasn't allowed to, learning to drive and setting up a bank account in his own name. She lied to his grandparents on a great number of occasions and they largely believed those lies. So, his grandparents always tried to force a relationship between him and his mother and were often angry if he tried to distance himself from her.

A few years ago, his mother did something really awful which ended up involving the police and local authority (so the LA are completely aware of what she did) and after months of providing evidence, the grandparents agreed that she was definitely the person who had done it and agreed that my husband was reasonable to cut contact with her at least until she owned up and apologised - she still hasn't. Since then, my husband and his grandparents have had a really lovely relationship. They know not to believe anything his mother says and because her usual tactic of turning them against him was to say he's being violent or aggressive etc, she can't use that because they know he's not in contact with her at all.

Recently, my husband's granny died and left his grandpa alone. My husband's mother used this to try and force a relationship again - she used her eulogy at the funeral to attack my husband for cutting contact with her and ambushed us afterwards demanding that we restart a relationship with her. She's managed to get under Grandpa's skin and he's now saying that time has passed and we should resume contact.

Meanwhile, we're going through the adoption process. We've told them that we have no contact with my mother in law and they've agreed that it's for the best. We also told them the rest of the family support our decision - which was true at the time we said it but now that support is wavering from grandpa. Our adoption agency want a reference from grandpa to corroborate everything we've told them about my mother's behaviour in my childhood - he won't provide this reference.

He's very, very old and unwell now and has just lost his wife. He's an English, ex-military guy who very much does not air his dirty laundry outside the family. He's beyond embarrassed by my mother's behaviour and doesn't talk about it. In addition, he doesn't know most of what actually happened because until my husband left home he couldn't communicate with his grandpa without his mother there and she lied to him relentlessly for years about what was going on.

I'm struggling to understand how/why they can refuse to allow us to adopt on the basis that someone else (not us) is unwilling to provide a reference which is essentially just a character assassination of their own child. Like with most things they've said, their reason is pretty much "because we said so".

Does anyone have any experience with either convincing elderly relatives to stab their own children in the back or with convincing adoption agencies to stop demanding references that we can't get? Our only other alternative appears to be to wait until he dies but that's horrifically morbid.

OP posts:
Ted27 · 23/04/2021 16:10

To be honest I think I’d probably look to move to another agency.

Its unacceptable to demand a reference from an elderly, bereaved and unwell person. If they are unreasonable about this I’d be worried about what else they will be difficult about.

donquixotedelamancha · 23/04/2021 18:43

I second what Ted says. Presuming you've explained to them clearly that he doesn't want to provide one and is quite frail then it's very odd for them to inist.

SonnyWinds · 23/04/2021 19:15

Thank you for your responses. Because of our circumstances (unrelated to the mother issue), we can't find any other agency who's willing to take us on right now (just due to availability).
Ted, to ease your wondering about what else they've been difficult about - everything. Absolutely every single little thing.

OP posts:
Ted27 · 23/04/2021 22:01

sometimes its worth waiting

Do you really want to be with an agency that wants you to harass an elderly, ill relative. Can you trust them to do their best for you when it comes to family finding?

I understand the frustration and wanting to get on with it.

My firsy agency caused me no end of grief. In the end it just wasnt worth it. I could have forced my way through to panel but I didnt trust them with family finding for me. I left after 18 months - yes it cost me time but it was worth it.

Italiangreyhound · 24/04/2021 01:38

I think in your shoes I wold probably work on your husband's dad in terms of you know your grandmother knew the truth and much as it is terribly sad that your husband's mother was cruel and abusive, she was.

You really want to adopt before your husband's grandfather dies, you want him to be a great granddad to your child and you want the truth to come out because there is honour in the truth being told.

I can imagine it will be very painful for your husband's granddad to write this down but it is the truth, and in telling it, he will be releasing you and your husband to be the parents you want to be.

I'm not really clear on why you cannot change agency but you could say to your husband's granddad that any change of agency would mean delay and you would like to start now.

Also, you know agencies do not have children to place, so you could quite legitimately leave one agency and go to a local authority or county council authority.

At the end of the day, in insisting on a reference to back up your claims your chosen agency simply do not believe you, and thta seems really quite ridiculous. Whatever reasons your husband has for being no contact with his mum, I think those are going to be legitimate reasons. Not wanting to inflict such a person on his child is a noble decision.

Whether your husband's grandfather can back up the story or not, he could easily have dementia by now, so if he were not here to back up the story are they simply saying they do not believe it.

I'd say work on your husband's grandfather to do the right and honourable thing, it is not his fault his child was an awful mum, but if he choses not to tell the truth about it now (while he still can) he is standing in the way of your future and that seems hugely unfair.

Even if a lot of time had passed, no one can force your husband to have a relationship with an abusive person and the fact you don't want that relationship for any future children is admirable.

If not finding an agency is 'just due to availability' could you widen the search and try neighboring counties?

Italiangreyhound · 24/04/2021 01:39

Sorry ... you know voluntary agencies do not have children to place, is it a voluntary agency?

Jannt86 · 24/04/2021 08:09

This does seem pretty crazy. Why not go to one of the many other people he has a good relationship with such as dad/stepdad/aunt? What they surely need to be clear of is not why he and his mum are estranged but whether you're both capable of sustaining loving, supportive relationships. In that sense it's really irellevent why he doesn't talk to his mum and tbh I might also see it as a positive that he's had the insight to refuse to continue with an abusive relationship even if it is his mum. I agree on maybe contacting some other agencies/LA. Either way I would be prepared for a lot of questions about his upbringing etc. Remember that they're ultimately not trying to work out who was 'right or wrong' (it's rarely that simple in reality) What they really want to know is that this cycle of unhelpful parenting isn't going to repeat iteself. When he's questionned about it I'd try not to be bitter and point score but just explain in a factual way why he's broken contact and demonstrate that your reflection on how this has impacted you and might affect you as a parent and how you plan to overcome that. Eg I was quite open that my dad hit me as a child but I focussed on the fact that I realise this made me a more anxious adult and had a less open relationship with him so that motivated me to never be physical with my own child. It's frustrating I know especially when the problem doesn't lie with you as such but you just have to play the game a bit. I really don't think all agencies/LA would be this awkward though so worth shopping around xx

SonnyWinds · 24/04/2021 16:05

Thank you for all your advice and comments. This is a local authority, not a voluntary agency.
@Jannt86 My husband is very similar to you in that he's very self-aware and reflective of what his parent did poorly and is actively ensuring he doesn't do those things. He's also a teacher and can recognise the impact these behaviours have. We're already parents so he simply doesn't exhibit those behaviours.
@Italiangreyhound Your question about what they would do if he weren't around is a really good one because it's what we've been thinking too. His grandpa didn't witness anything (as domestic abuse almost always happens out of view of those who are outside the home) so he only knows what he's been told by my husband - which isn't much because it's upsetting for him to hear about his own child. There's nothing that he can corroborate first hand other than one incident of her stealing my husband's inheritance that grandpa had allowed her to safeguard until he was 18. My sister-in-law and stepfather-in-law both lived in the same household and saw firsthand what took place, we also have recordings of some incidents - so why grandpa is needed feels more like a power trip or an excuse to reject us than a genuine pursuit of information.
@Ted27 You may well be right. I don't trust them at all and they clearly don't trust us.

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 24/04/2021 22:15

This sounds very complicated and very unfair on you both.

rose69 · 25/04/2021 07:42

Ask the social worker if a letter to the Director of Social services explaining the circumstances would be the next step.

DesdemonasHanky · 25/04/2021 13:08

We adopted through the local authority. My DH is non contact with his ENTIRE family. Social services did not have access to anybody who knew the full story and made do with a friend who knew some of what had happened. SW was extremely supportive.

UnbeatenMum · 27/04/2021 12:32

Is it worth allowing them to send his Grandpa a request for a reference even if it's not filled in? We were asked for an additional family reference, which was completed, but I think we would have been allowed to proceed if it hadn't been, it was just a case of making sure that family member had an opportunity to state any concerns.

LenaConor · 27/04/2021 15:58

Ask the social worker

minniemomo · 27/04/2021 16:12

Is there something on record that implies you husband is somewhat to blame for the relationship breakdown with his mother? I'm wondering if there more to this because I can't imagine they normally seek references for elderly relatives

Giovanna1712 · 01/05/2021 00:56

I'm really sorry to hear you're having such problems @SonnyWinds, and can appreciate the bind you must feel in if there aren't any alternative agencies you can use.

I appreciate the need for them to corroborate stories with others but this insistence in speaking with someone who's reluctant to speak seems bizarre to me; the fact that he is recently bereaved pushes that (in my view) to bordering upon unethical. SWs are meant to work within a very clear Code of Professional Practice; I know many any overworked and under-supported, but the basic core values of empathy, compassion and ethical practice should be absolute givens.

I don't think it's right that your husband's grandfather should be coerced into doing anything he's uncomfortable with.

During my assessment I didn't want my ex-husband contacted, he's no part of my life so I wanted him to have absolutely nothing to do with me becoming a mother. But, I understood their insistence on speaking with him to eliminate domestic abuse concerns (etc.) so very reluctantly agreed. Luckily for me he simply ignored them anyway. His refusal had no impact on my assessment though, they just used my other referees to corroborate things I'd said.

So, I would be tempted to say to your grandfather that you're sorry that SWs will be sending him a letter asking for the reference anyway, but reassuring him it's absolutely his choice if he wishes to respond to that or not; that way you've done your bit for SWs, and you've behaved with integrity towards your grandfather.

They can't force someone to do something.

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