Explaining gender preferences?

[cherrypie111]

Hi everyone and I hope you're all well in the lead up to Christmas!

I am getting in a bit of a pickle around having to continually explain our gender preferences with our SW, she has also said we need to be aware panel will dig into it as well and if we don't have a 'good enough' reason for it, they might find it to be a problem!

We are a bit surprised with this considering it's quite common for parents in general to have a preference even when having a biological child, when discussing with her our preference (girl) she always seems to get annoyed with us and develops a tone as if we are wrong for having one.

Has anyone else had their gender preferences almost argued with? And has anyone also had it be a big issue when coming to panel?

If you have a choice why not choose what you prefer is my view

Because that is the opposite to the purpose of adoption. You describe being willing to go to extreme lengths to achieve something you describe as no more than a whim.

Either there are strong reasons which you are unwilling to explore or you regard your merest preference as an entitlement and everything else as barriers to be overcome. Both of these would really problematic in an adoption.

What has your SW said when you described considering going to America so you could have gender selective IVF?

Did you read the replies above explaining why this is such a problem?

@cherrypie111 Having much more experience with girls was our reason for a mild preference for girls. However, we also had quite a few potential links with boys and felt very drawn to some of them. What I find worrying is that you are so set on this. It is my way or the highway and that spells trouble for your adoption.

You will have to accept and love your child the way he or she is. There are many risks and you really have to be flexible and open minded and take it as it comes. You can have the tightest matching criteria and wait for years for the "perfect" child and a few years down the line that perfect girl might be diagnosed with all sorts of things. What then? Adoption is very much about being able to take things as they come and embrace that.

There are differences between boys and girls, but for me parenting both it's not being the stereotypical stuff. My boy is so sensitive and takes everything in. He loves cuddles. He has developed more slowly and I believe there are studies showing boys take longer brains to develop when they are young ( without an additional circumstances and issue.) Despite trying to expose my boy to things that are typically boys interests to give him the option myself and DH aren't sporty at all. So he's tried football training, rugby and athletics and he's not interested. I've also had him try dance and drama. My girl is certainly very independent and fiesty. She is still very young, but I can't see her being a ballet dancer, but I will again give her the opportunity to try it and different things. You cannot predict what they will turn out like. I think home life will influence it, but there maybe something genetic you just won't know about.

OP, it’s good that your adoption buddies have progressed with a preference for boys however, I think an issue many people are picking up here is your very extreme position (eg considering flying to America to ensure having a girl) but with little explanation beyond it being what you are familiar with (as far as you’ve shared here).

So it’s not just your position on gender that may cause you issues but your overall approach/attitude and seeming lack of understanding on why so many experienced adopters are seeing red flags here - and clearly your social worker also has concerns.

You can clearly choose to just take on board feedback from your peers from adoption groups etc but you are choosing to ignore some very experienced adopters here. You will have adopters on your approval panel amongst other professionals who may well pick up on this. I think you need to reflect and consider how you would respond to that question in a panel as your current answer won’t be good enough for many experienced assessors.

@percypetulant

Wow. Why not choose eye colour etc while you're at it?

Maybe the fact that everyone "develops a tone" when you say your preference tells you something?

Who said everyone develops a tone?

Goodness me, thankfully MN seems to be a bit of an outlier and other adoption boards have said it's not uncommon to have a gender preference and in our group of adoption buddies some refused to consider girls and were fine at panel kind of proves otherwise. But thanks for the input

@Brunt0n

Yeah.. I hope you wouldn’t be approved for adoption expressing opinions like this. You know you’re not buying a doll right?

What!?

Adoption isn't buying a doll!

How after 8 months of training and meetings has no one told me this yet...

[quote Ted27]@Brunt0n I think its necessarily harsh

@cherrypie111 if you pursue adoption and want a girl so much, its highly likely that you would end up with a girl
When I was going throught the process I really thought I had no preference with regard to the sex of my future child. When it came to looking at profiles however, I really struggled with the girls, I adopted a boy and it was right for me.
I’ve been on adoption boards for about 14 years, I don’t think I’ve ever come across a prospective adopter quite so adament about the sex of a child, without being able to articulate a sound reason.
For example a single adopter may feel that for practical reasons a child of the same sex would be a better fit or a family with existing children may feel a child of a particular sex would balance the family in some way.
A good adoption assessment should involve some challenge to you. I’m sure most adopters have some image in their head about their child, I did. He looks nothing like the child I imagined, but he is very much the character I dreamed about.
Yes, adoption is about finding families for children but it is also about our dreams of parenthood. I think the reality of parenthood, however it is achieved, is rarely what we imagine it to be. This is more so with adoption.

Posters here are concerned that rigidity of thought around this may be a sign of inflexibity in other area of life. And if there is one thing you need in adoption, its flexibility.
It might help you to really reflect on this and challenge yourself a bit.[/quote]
Thank you for this

At the start we did wonder about just doing what other adopters we know did and say they were open but just reject any profiles which weren't the gender they were hoping for but I honestly don't want to waste SW's time.

I have no doubt over the course of the process our requirements might change which apparently is normal when you actually start looking, tbh they already have a bit as we are adamant only for one child 0-2 but during our last family finding meeting a sibling set (girl 3 and boy 8 months) has stuck with me for an unknown reason and I'm constantly thinking about them so I know it's mailable but for now we just want profiles we would say yes too, which is where being honest about our preferences come from, also we had to be honest about the ivf and since we were looking to go for gender selective it would have been obvious to our SW it was a strong preference anyway.

Might just be easier with panel etc to say you would consider both but prefer girls because you always saw yourself with a girl, so you have a strong preference. You can then be more particular at matching, once you’re approved.

When we started our adoption process, we were told by our social worker to put down that we would look at any child 0-7 and would consider special needs etc, even when in reality we knew we don’t have capacity for one of us to give up work for example - but she said to us that we would be more likely considered if we left our options open. At matching we could always be more particular she told us.

Interestingly, at panel we were asked why we were only interested in adopting a boy, and we had never expressed an interest. It’s obviously up to you - but the way you have put yourself across on here does unfortunately come across as quite odd, hence the fairly harsh replies you have received... Selective IVF seems a strange thing to me to be honest, but obviously it exists because they can and because people want it.

Sorry have just realised you have responded to someone who made the same point...!!! I don’t think it’s wasting the social workers time as they know you don’t really want a boy, but you would be demonstrating you are flexible and adaptable tk change...

I think your last post reflects many people's experiences. We all have an idealised view of our future parenting and of our ideal child in mind. That often changes once people read profiles of actual children and try to imagine themselves with them.

you’re not shopping for the ideal child. You’d be better off waiting for Covid to calm down and get your gender selective IVF because you don’t seem to understand what adoption is about

From the little I have gleaned from looking into UK adoption, it seems it is a good strategy to be fairly open to matches before you actually getting to matching - at that point you can start narrowing your criteria.

As pp have said, there seem to be a lot more boys available for adoption (and I'm assuming boys and girls are available for adoption as 50/50) so lots of adoptees chose girls over boys.

I think if your friends have expressed a preference for boys then as has been said, that's not going to be discouraged (in fact I imagine it's encouraged) as there are so many boys available - and some of those boys are therefore at danger not ever been matched?

When we were going through approval, and even when looking at matches I was always drawn to either 2 boys or 1 or each. I didn't 'see' myself with 2 girls at all.

We adopted 2 girls. Now i can't imagine having boys.

I think there is a difference between saying
A) I only want girls because
B) I am drawn more to girls , but will keep an open mind just in case
C) I will only consider girls

I think A and B are fine, C less so (because if you can't articulate it there might be something important lurking in the background).

OP, you appeared to start at C, but seem now to be examining your thoughts and moving to B.

OP, if you could have a baby naturally and it was a boy, what would you do?

@swearsby2

OP other than the fact that you are used to girls, are there any other reasons why you would not want to parent boys? If you could try to explain the specific areas you would see problematic it might be more helpful. You will need to help your dc navigate friendships with boys and girls and if you have very stereotypical ideas about boys, you will struggle with that.

I have no issues with boys, I'm not going to ban them from the house (otherwise DH would be a goner)

I'm also very open to a boy if BM has another child as that would be what's best for both. I've grown up with all girls as has DH so I guess it's just what we are used to/comfortable with. We have only looked after girls before and as first timers I don't want to add more new into the mix as we will already be out of our comfort zone having social workers involved in their early lives (esp if we get an EP placement)

There is also the psychological side of boys through care seem to be the most impacted by additional needs throughout their lives, due to the hormonal differences between the two. I know many on here say the only difference is between the legs but it's not, there is a reason boys as a whole tend to have a higher prevalence of ADHD and associated disorders. I have done over 2 years of active research into gender differences through adoption, meeting with child psychologists across the country and in the US, I'm a forensic psychologist myself and treat boys and men many of whom have been through care (and then end up in prison where I work) so it's a combo of wanting a girl, in addition to having a lot of experience with the downsides of boys in care.

obviously I don't want to use this as my reason as clearly girls can also suffer and I don't want it to seem like I actively can't or won't want a child with additional needs, I would just like to make an active effort to reduce the risk is all.

In the past I would have always loved to have a daughter but life gave me 3 sons & I wouldn’t change it for the world! Each of them are different in terms of looks, play, dress sense, friendships, affection, aspirations - a child is a unique being irrespective of sex! You don’t always know in advance what might suit your family.

I think to express such a strong desire for only 1 sex & go to far as to say you wouldn’t consider a boy would be a red flag for a social worker who, as many have pointed out here, are looking for the most suitable homes for vulnerable children. By law it is the child’s needs that form their primary consideration. It is not a matter of simply meeting the adopter’s checklist sadly and when this occurs things can go tragically wrong. Adopted and fostered children who fail to live upto mythical expectations & are then rejected....it happens. More than you might think. It is horrendous.

No social worker on Earth can forsee how a child may develop. Added to which, in this day & age a child may choose to align with a different gender than their ‘prescribed’ sex, what would you do in this event? This would be your child for life, in their ‘forever home’. Perhaps a girl that was not traditionally feminine, who enjoyed ‘boy things’ & only socialised with other males would she meet your requirements of ‘a girl’? All quite possible outcomes!

I speak as a social worker with 17 years experience at a senior level I might add.

I don’t meant to sound harsh but it may come across as though you don’t want a child for who they actually are. That you don’t appreciate the significance of how children come to be in care; the trauma, the attachment issues, the need to be loved unconditionally in safe & secure in a loving home. I would certainly do some reflection on your rationale and prepare for panel to enquire further.

This said I do wish you well on your journey, I know it isn’t an easy one and I do understand try and that your heart may say a girl is right for you, I think you need to probe deeper though and have an honest discussion with your assessing social worker.

VVKills27 very interesting post.

Thank you @Italiangreyhound! I just hoped to give the OP some food for thought.

One reason why boys seem to have higher incidences of ADHD, autism etc is because girls are conditioned into greater levels of masking and therefore go undiagnosed. I say this as a woman who was only diagnosed with ADHD as an adult.

We expressed a mild preference for girls. My husband was quite open about the fact that his younger sibling and cousins were all girls and we have lots of nieces so this all just made us slightly more comfortable with a girl. We did indeed adopt a girl. However the difference is we were never completely closed to a boy and even got fairly close to expressing interest for a boy before we were matched. Tbh my 2.5YO dd is a complete whirlwind and gender right now doesn't even factor into that. She loves her dolls and tea parties etc and is starting to insist on wearing dresses. She also loves dinosaurs and toy cars, loves to jump and climb on me and dh, has to be reminded a zillion times a day to be gentle with the cat and like a puppy she needs exercising twice a day We wouldn't have her any other way. We aren't pushing a gender agenda on her either way. She can have the freedom to express herself however she wants and persue whatever interests she likes. This is a massive part of raising a child in today's modern world and something that I'd imagine sw are very hot on exploring with a prospective adopter. I'm not going to be as harsh as pp but I'm just going to say that being this rigid about gender would raise alarm bells with me as an assesor. What would be running though my mind is if you're this rigid about how your child is going to fit into your family how rigid are you in general? If you have a girl who is a tomboy or even when older identifies as a boy how will you deal with this? What about if they identify with a sexuality other than heterosexual? What if they just don't want to persue a hobby you had in mind for them? What if more serious behavioural/learning difficulties arise which often don't show up until later in life? Is your idea in general of your prospective child so rigid that you won't cope with the above and therefore won't be able to support your child appropriately? I'm not saying it is but I think it's something that your assessors, if they're doing their job right, would really want to explore.

Having said all this I disagree with pp about just saying you're willing to consider children that you really wouldn't be. We were open in saying that there were children we wouldn't consider as due to my work we just wouldn't be able to meet their needs and that's fine. It doesn't mean I wouldn't step up to meet my dd's needs if they became more complicated but there's a big difference between adapting to that and choosing it and ss realise this and I think they'd prefer you to be honest. I feel that if I'd said I was willing to adopt a child who needed round the clock care when dh and I both do quite demanding jobs that we've spent years building up to that they might question our integrity and whether we really thought it through. It doesn't mean we wouldn't absolutely step up for our dd if we needed to though.

In short I think perhaps it's not the gender preference itself you need to be worried about it's your rigidity and rationalle about it. You need to really think about what it is you're hoping to gain from adopting for both you and your child and you need to have your ideas quite clear before you come to selecting a child. I'm not saying you can'y adjust your ideas but I promise you that once you start looking at profiles you'll want to adopt them all and emotion will take over. That will be much more overwhelming if you haven't put quite a rational plan in place... good luck xx

I think some of things that you have listed about the outcomes of trauma on boys/men are valid concerns as statistically men who have been in care as children are far more likely to end up in prison than the rest of the population. That being said, your approach feels slightly disingenuous with regards to girls. My mother worked in social housing in the late 70s and has a very crude phrase about the effects of childhood poverty and trauma:

Boys get locked up and girls get knocked.

I genuinely think that your work and research regarding the effects of trauma on boys/men is skewing your vision. The effects of trauma on girls/women is just as bad/hard but appears differently.

I can see why you are reluctant to use this as an argument but not for the reasons you think. If you told me that as an assessor I would be extremely worried about your ability to parent a traumatised girl because you've failed to understand that trauma is not less in girls it just presents differently.

In all honesty, those posting for support and advice on the adoptive/foster care forums I belong to are just as likely to be posting about violence, drug/alcohol issues and self harm in girls as they are in boys.

There is also the psychological side of boys through care seem to be the most impacted by additional needs throughout their lives, due to the hormonal differences between the two. I know many on here say the only difference is between the legs but it's not, there is a reason boys as a whole tend to have a higher prevalence of ADHD and associated disorders. I have done over 2 years of active research into gender differences through adoption, meeting with child psychologists across the country and in the US, I'm a forensic psychologist myself and treat boys and men many of whom have been through care (and then end up in prison where I work) so it's a combo of wanting a girl, in addition to having a lot of experience with the downsides of boys in care

It is true that hormones affect us significantly, but how we think about things which will have significantly more impact most of the time. This is why not all women deal with PMT hormones in the same way - I might have feelings about hitting someone but my prefrontal cortex and empathy wins out! There are also things we can do to change the balance of our hormones, how we live will have a huge impact. I am really surprised that after 2 years of discussing things with psychologists, and I also note your profession, this was your conclusion. My take on it is that how well boys deal with adoption and/or disorders will come down to how well they are taught to live, how well they are taught empathy and self control, and emotional intelligence generally. I also think that society as a whole is relevant because boys are still treated differently to girls (I have boys, and I have had some interesting conversations with teachers about why their expectations and treatment of boys and girls are so different...)

I have seen studies that the majority of inmates have ADHD - and dyslexia too, interestingly - but the studies also say say that if the child had had different input when young, there would be completely different outcomes.

Is it possible your career has made you jaundiced? Why do you think your dh has turned out differently from the men you come across professionally?

Have you had a look at the Selwyn report regarding violence in adopted boys and girls? If not, you might find it interesting:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/302339/Final_Research_brief_-_3rd_April_2014.pdf

I think @ifchocolatewerecelery is making very good points.

I agree with ifchocolatewerecelery too

You say you are concerned about the impact of care on boys and therefore would prefer to adopt a girl. May I ask why you would go for gender selective IWF then?