Three year old behaviour issues

[MischiefManager]

I have made contact with adoption support about this and am waiting to hear back but wondered what others thoughts were.

I adopted DD at 11 months. She was very demanding and angry from the beginning, understandably so. This has steadily got worse until I am now questioning whether there is more to her behaviour. Firstly I should say she is the most wonderful little girl, she is lively and funny and can be really kind and affectionate. She has a great curiosity about the world. However the following are concerns I have;
-She hurts other children and animals frequently and often with no apparent reason or warning.
-She is incredibly impulsive and often appears unable to do the right thing even with all the support and encouragement in the word, this often leads to the above.
-Her frustration tolerance is exceptionally low and she will blow up at the drop of a hat. She is also completely unwilling to try things that she finds tricky 95% of the time.
-She is very overbearing with other children, constantly touching, getting too close and trying to help them to the point that they often avoid her 😔

• she shouts aggressively and pulls angry faces all the time at family and other children this ask leads t her upsetting other children

-she is a whirlwind in the house moving from one lot of mischief to the next. I have to keep a gate on her door or she’s up after I’ve put her to bed emptying the shampoo bottles or flooding the bathroom! -it can be very hard to get her attention if she is fixed on doing something, getting her to make eye contact in these circumstances is almost impossible.

• there are very few consequences that make any difference. Removing toys doesn’t bother her at all, time in and she’ll say a heart felt sorry before going back to the exact same thing. Calming time in her room is the same. Praise, stickers, treats mean nothing.
• she will make something at home or nursery and be so proud of what she’s made only to rip it up or throw it to the dogs moments later. She also often throws her toys to the puppy who she knows will chew them and is never upset when they are broken.

Some of her traits seem very adhd but without the hyperactivity as such. She can sit and watch a few tv programs or part of a film quietly (thank goodness 🤣). I know she’s three and three year olds are challenging but I work with children and I see her behaviour is extreme. She is a little better at nursery when she goes but it is a very free nursery with little structure so less likely to show some of the issues. There have been several unprovoked incidents of her hurting children there though. I’d really like to support her with this before she starts school. My biggest worry is that she won’t have friends 😔😔

We have books about feelings and feelings dolls. I try to practice mindfulness activities with her but she tends not to engage, I try to give her as much 121 as I can but none of it seems to have made much difference so far.

Has anybody experienced similar that has any advice or suggestions...other than a wine subscription 🤣

Forgot to say she regularly hits and kicks me and her sister and grabs her sister by the hair and won’t let go too.

Hi she sounds a lot like my daughter at the same age, adopted by us at 8 months. It's exhausting isn't it! You mention ADHD, but have you considered FASD (foetal alcohol spectrum disorder)?

Both my adopted children have been diagnosed with FASD, and one also has suspected ADHD.

NHS Scotland have a good website which you might find useful https://www.nhsaaa.net/services-a-to-z/fetal-alcohol-spectrum-disorder-fasd/

Hope you get a good response too from Adoption Services, there seems to be growing awareness about FASD, particularly as it affects so many care experienced people

Thanks so much for responding. Yes I have wondered if FASD might be at play too. I maybe need to read a bit more about this as a possibility too. It’s somehow reassuring just knowing that we are not the only ones!!

I thought FASD too. However, a lot of the behaviour also correlates to attachment and trauma. If her cortisol baseline level is much higher than the average person, it wouldn’t take much stress or emotion for her to become dysregulated leading to fight/flight/freeze (which can manifest in some or few he behaviours you describe). Also, kids with trauma and attachment issues often have poor impulse control and no understanding of cause and effect. (If I give this to the dog, the dog will break it. If it’s broken, I can’t play with it/show everyone my nice picture etc). As she is so little, do you know if she has constancy and/or permancy? I wonder if work around that will help?

Do you have post adoption support? I wonder if it’s worth making contact with Sw to point you in the right direction with strategies? There is a whole variety of behaviours which are causing you concern. I wonder if it’s worth while having a chat with someone who can observe your little one. There may also be areas of her development which are delayed which may not be apparent due to her thriving so well. Even though she was placed so young, doesn’t mean she hasn’t missed out on some other areas.

These are just some food for thought from a very worried mum of a school aged boy with many of the same behaviours.

Just realised you have said you’ve already made contact with post adoption support. Fingers crossed they give you some support soon.

Also sounds like my FASD daughter who is now nine. She is lively, impulsive and has difficulties with emotional regulation. This was definitely apparent at three, but even more so now, as the gap between her development and those of her peers is widening. Things that have helped have been having very clear boundaries in the context of a loving, forgiving relationship. I have also always monitored her as closely as possible with other children and quickly intervened before things escalate - pretty exhausting at times and obviously impossible at preschool/school. In this instance you need to prime the teachers. If your daughter is on the FASD spectrum, it is likely that she will take much longer to learn things that can come easily to other children and will be socially immature. Consistency is the key and you will get there eventually. At nine, my daughter is emotionally like a four/five year old but she is very loved and we wouldn’t be without her for the world.

Thank you so much. It looks like FASD is something I need to be looking at as a strong possibility then. It’s really does help knowing others have been through this and I’m not going mad.

Could I ask what the process was that led to getting that diagnosis? And also if there are any particularly behaviour strategies to use or avoid while I wait to hear back about support?

Diagnosis depends a bit on where you live. NHS Scotland are further ahead on this, whereas in England and Wales there isn't a pathway yet and it's a bit of a postcode lottery. In the first instance ask the health visitor or GP for a referral to a paediatrician. They might not know much (anything!) about FASD, or ask about head size and facial features (which are only present in about 10% of people with FASD). Take evidence if you have it of alcohol consumption during pregnancy, and your concerns as listed in your first post. A blood test will be done to rule out any genetic causes, and they will ask nursery for information about her behaviour there. My eldest had a number of psychological assessments, but youngest didn't. Both mine had speech and language and occupational therapy assessments. In some areas CAMHS (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service) are also involved.

There are also private FASD clinics in the UK but I don't have any personal experience of them.

In terms of managing behaviour (whether its potential FASD and/or trauma), routines and consistency are good, being slow and clear with instructions, and use their name at the start of the sentence to ensure they have your attention. Discourage the use of sarcasm and idiom by anyone involved in her care (my daughter had a tantrum once because it wasn't actually, literally raining cats and dogs!).

There is a closed Facebook group called FASD UK which is really helpful, and you may find using a Therapeutic Parenting or PACE (playful, accepting, curious, empathetic) approach helpful too.

It can be hard work, and you'll get sick of the sound of yourself sounding like Flop looking after Bing, but in the long run it does make life a bit easier! Best of luck with it all

Thank you again. I’ve found some useful stuff on line. The more I read the more it sounds like her. I don’t have evidence that there was drinking during pregnancy and I’m unlikely to get it but it’s certainly not unreasonable from what we do know to think it’s a possibility, Nursery are on board so we’ll see what happens from here and start using the strategies I’m reading about.

Gosh this sounds like my son at age 3! I immediately thought FASD too before seeing the other replies.
It may be very helpful to go back over the CPR and all info you were given to look for any evidence of pre-natal alcohol exposure. Remember if there is evidence if drug use there will highly likely be alcohol use too. Our SW said there was drug use but no evidence of alcohol use! The two go hand in hand!
Do not let LA fob you if with the 'it's all attachment' line. We wasted 2 years on inappropriate ineffectual interventions before we got our FASD diagnosis.
Don't rule out autism/ other genetic issues.
By the way since diagnosis and using the right supports our son is doing amazingly well!

I’d echo @Niffler75. My son is 5 and has been with us 2 years. His behaviour is very challenging at times. There is barely a day that he isn’t violent.

I’ve found that over the past 2 years, we’ve been told attachment and trauma. A lot of his behaviour does relate to this. We’re finally being supported by Sw but it’s been hard to get support for him at school. The problem we have is that his behaviour doesn’t quite fit into one diagnosis which is why we have been told attachment and trauma. I don’t need a diagnosis, I just need the right strategies to support him because I don’t know what to do. I worry about him all the time.

I hope you get the support you need soon.

Suggest you seek advice from School's Statutory DISABILITY TEAM via LA., for a referral too Local community (SEND) disability team, ask for a pathway plan assessment be put in place., this will bring into-play all support network 's OT. Ed Psychologist. Autism assessment's., lots of support, we got level 2 Funding for nursery £1800pa too supply equipment and staff training on top of PP. also a place for our child in a specialist support school, he is progressing very well.

That sounds amazing. I’m in Scotland. Is that still the case?

I’ve been arguing with the school that he has additional needs which they are refusing to acknowledge. I can’t even get them to bring him into the class after fighting in the playground. They keep putting him in that position and don’t intervene when he goes into “fight mode” and he and other children are getting hurt. I don’t know what to do anymore. That’s just one example but it’s been a nightmare. He has only been there for just over a month.

I’ve had meetings and Sw have been calling. I’ve got play therapy in place. Also, I’ve asked for Ed psychology from the school and they’ve reluctantly agreed. I’ve a cahms appointment soon to start the assessment. I think all the time im just not enough for him.

@121Sarah121 ((hugs)) My son was exactly the same when he started school. He was in constant sensory overload and with the impulsiveness and emotional immaturity made for a potent combination. We had to remove him before he was expelled before his fifth birthday! 😟

@Niffler75 I’ve given the school strategies. They’ve decided they know best and did they’re own thing. After 3 weeks, the teacher mentioned he was standing in the classroom with his hands over his ears rocking. I told them he has sensory processing issues and he is showing you that he is struggling and how are you going to support him? The teacher then suggested one of the strategies i suggested. How can she not know? I feel ignored because he doesn’t have a formal diagnosis. The Sw said last week that she thinks that we are maybe missing something but she doesn’t know what. I’m devastated. If she doesn’t know what to do then how can I support him?

Foetal alcohol syndrome is a definite possibility from what you describe, not all have physical characteristics. What you describe sounds so like my friends adopted dd who is diagnosed

@121Sarah121 I would contact Adoption UK and take look at the FASD Hub.

You may not feel comfortable saying but is there any history of drug use from BM?

Also support for children is based on need and not necessarily having a diagnosis.

I would be contacting your SW and asking for a meeting with the school. Adoption UK will be well placed to advise.

Is there anything else I can do to help?

I’ll look at adoption uk.

I’ve asked his Sw to go back through his notes. There isn’t much known pre birth as he didn’t come to the attention of Sw until after birth. I’ve told her I have concerns regarding FASD as his behaviour is more than trauma and attachment. I’m not a specialist, I’m a parent.

I’m well aware that support isn’t dependent on a diagnosis. I challenged the school on that. So did my Sw. And another Sw and the play therapist. I must say the Sw are really supporting me. I’ve had meetings and lots of phone calls with the school. I’m definitely one of those parents.

Disentangling trauma and attachment can be really difficult. There’s developmental delay too to factor in. But amongst it all is a little boy, aged 5, who loves school and academically doing incredibly well. I worry too much about him.

Adoption support fund Help, and Pupil premium plus may be worth looking at this also see if your LA's. is a participating member. www.pac-uk.org . Also lots of information for schools.

121 Sarah 121 Is Statutory so would apply too Scotland would suggest google Statutory SEND Early years guidance Scotland. Lay out and wording will be different but would apply too child from age of TWO. Regs. would be the same as all of UK.

I think it sounds like you do need to think about FASD, but also other genetic/substance issues. Does looking at birth family history give any clues? Did FC notice anything 'different'? Perhaps have a look over the CPR and see if there's subtle clues to alcohol or other substances, or FH, you may have missed. (I missed things that were written in SW code, that I now wonder if there is more to, which is frustrating.) ADHD and ASD are under-recognised in girls, so it's worth keeping an open mind on those.

The touching others sounds like one of mine who has sensory processing issues- perhaps request an OT assessment?

It is incredibly difficult to discern between ASD, ADHD, attachment difficulties, anxiety, trauma, substances, genetic disorders... As others have said, school/nursery should support based on need, rather than needing a diagnosis, or one box for her, as realistically you may never find one perfect box that fits all her needs, as it's likely a mixture.

I found a child on parent violence course very helpful, in terms of recognising dysregulation, and when to jump in and defuse things. The best thing was finding out we're not alone. Talking about violence, especially from one so young, can feel very difficult, it makes people uncomfortable. Not to mention that it's uncomfortable to live with! However, early intervention can help so much. You're not alone.

Is her sister a birth sister?

OP as an interim measure, try taking her for walks, working up to a few hours a couple of times a week - walks rather than just being in a park. You may find this has a soothing (of nervous system) and calming affect which improves behaviour and attention overall. If so this will give you clues about other things to try going forward. This won't be detrimental unless it highlights physical problems - which again would provide you with more clues. Sweets as bribery at first. Lots of 1:1/attention/talking as you go along

@121Sarah121 The teacher then suggested one of the strategies i suggested. How can she not know? have you tried writing it all down for the school in a word doc? The behaviours, likely flashpoints, your suggested strategies and words for each situation? You could also give a copy to the senco and ask for a meeting between you, the senco and the teacher after a few weeks and go through each behaviour. You having a good working relationship with the school is fundamental. Don't worry, it is not because you are "just" a parent. If there is a problem with he teacher you would need to consider your options - though it has only been a month so it might improve. NB Your sw won't be able to diagnose and help you but a good "clinical psychologist" with expertise and experience in relation to developmental trauma would be able diagnose (or put you in touch with a psychiatrist if nec) and would be able to provide strategies and other care and recommend the therapeutic work necessary.

OP also she will make something at home or nursery and be so proud of what she’s made only to rip it up or throw it to the dogs moments later this does indicate to me some difficult feelings she cannot express - as well asother things probably - and if you take her for the long walks with all the talking and 1:1 together, again you may start to get clues from her and what she says about what is going on for her.

PS - holding hands for much of the walk with a 3 year old is really good too

There may be a few things at play here and certainly it’s worth following the assessment route for things like FASD and ADHD.

I recognise some of the behaviours in my DD who was older than your little one. Things like apparently not caring about her toys and possessions - being destructive. In my daughters case it wasn’t that she didn’t care, she was very used to not having anything that she would break, lose or destroy her things so no one could take them away from her. If her anxiety levels are high she will often break something precious to her still. It looks like wilful destruction but it’s actually a sign of distress.

Same with emptying toiletries etc - it’s a sensory thing, watching the liquid pour out, painting with it etc. We’ve had problems in school this year with my DD smearing soap on bathroom mirrors, again for her it’s a sign of distress and anxiety.

The whirlwind moving from one thing to another may relate to raised cortisol levels or hyper vigilance, which is a key trauma response in children and adults - moving from one thing to another because they feel threat or danger.

It’s also worth really thinking about the impact of shame - not the feeling of having done something wrong that helps us correct our behaviour, shame as it relates to trauma is a core sense that I as a person am bad. Children who experience trauma can really carry this feeling deeply, which inhibits them being able to relax, be themselves, accept love and care from others, try new things, own up to things they’ve done wrong. The fear that you’ll see the “thing” that makes them bad is overwhelming and impacts behaviour in all kinds of ways.

Dan Hughes writes so well about shame it’s worth reading up on.

I’d be really focusing on building your relationship with her, make that the absolute focus of your interventions rather than behaviour management. Pick your battles with her and provide lots and lots of sensory based activities. Things that helped my DD were playing in water - I still pop her in the bath if she’s stressed - making shapes in shaving foam on the windows, play doh, baking, music, dancing, jumping, digging in the garden, playing in the park (things like swinging, climbing, hanging on bars have been shown to help with self regulation). Most of all recognise her behaviour as communication and spot signs she’s becoming dysregulated - I’d find 5 minutes with me looking at a book together timed well would help her before she got to be dysregulated and tipped over.

Regular schedule, routine, good sleep (12 hours sleep for mine when she was 6) all play their part. It’s hard, but her nervous system seems to be working overtime, and calming that will help her regulate.