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Adoption

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21MO not sleeping

45 replies

Jannt86 · 24/01/2020 13:53

I'm still at my wit's end with my 21MO sleeping. Maybe I'm expecting too much. She used to be an angel sleeping intil a few weeks ago but now she's just literally refusing to nap in her bed even though I can tell she's shattered. I even offer to cuddle her to sleep but she refuses this too. The only thing that is a dead cert is being in the car (even if it's 9am Hmm) but sorry I refuse to be manupulated into taking a car journey every day just to get to sleep. We then have a solid nightime routine but it's the same again. It doesn't seem to matter when we put her down or how much sleep she's had during the day we are still there normally a good hour waiting for her to fall asleep. Then she normally ends up in our bad in the middle of the night. It's just driving me nuts because I'm desperately trying to get her into a good routine and I just feel like nothing is working and I feel like I'm failing her and we are all knackered. I feel like I should be able to comfort her to get her to sleep and feel like I should be able to recognise better when she's ready to sleep. Does anything actually work when kids get like this or do I just have to accept that she's never going to be a decent sleeper again?

OP posts:
jellycatspyjamas · 28/01/2020 07:37

This idea that you shouldn’t leave an adopted child to cry is just feeding unresolved trauma and leading to much more serious issues when your daughter is older.

I’d love to know the knowledge base underpinning your approach here - it’s certainly not consistent with attachment theory, or indeed any theory I know relating to child development or developmental trauma. No one is saying adopted children shouldn’t cry at times, and that they shouldn’t be supported to be independent but this child isn’t even 2 yet - being independent isn’t developmentally appropriate at this stage.

The idea that comforting your child, offering them support to learn how to self soothe aged 2 will some how make them dependent for life is nonsense. Apart from anything else, children learn to self soothe by being soothed by others and internalising that process, they learn emotional regulation by being comforted by a well regulated adult, they learn emotional literacy by being helped to understand their feelings by an emotionally available adult. The OPs child will have some degree of delay in these areas - the received wisdom is to parent to developmental age, not chronological age even if you go back 6 months I’d fully expect a 1 year old to need care and comfort to go to sleep irrespective of adoption. An adopted child whose attachments are much less secure by nature of the changes in carers they’ve had (regardless of other trauma), needs a different approach than a securely attached, loved, cared for from birth child.

The child won’t always need mum to comfort, won’t always be in mums bed but that should be a natural progression at the child’s pace.

Jannt86 · 28/01/2020 08:12

UKABC with respect what you're saying I believe to be nonsense . Leaving a basically helpless infant to cry on their own in a dark room will only increase their stress levels at a time when the 'fight or flight' part of their brain is developing most rapidly which will actually leave them MORE open to mental health problems and poor coping mechanisms in future. In infancy their entire brain development depends on them feeling safe and protected. Your's is a common misconception and I honestly do wonder whether educating people a bit more might help with the epidemic of mental health issues we're having with young people today. Attachment isn't just an issue unique to adoptees. It's a fundamental part of every child's development. I'm not talking about mollycoddling my child I'm talking about meeting her basic needs IMHO. There is a HUGE difference. Oh and if you think what I'm doing is teaching poor sleeping methods then name me one child who still sleeps in their parent's bed or need their parent to stay with them as they go to sleep after about the age of 5.... You're teaching them nothing by leaving them to scream except that you can't be bothered to be there.

OP posts:
jellycatspyjamas · 28/01/2020 08:13

This idea that you shouldn’t leave an adopted child to cry is just feeding unresolved trauma and leading to much more serious issues when your daughter is older.
At this age all trauma is unresolved, trauma becomes resolved in safe, secure, consistent relationships and at 2 years old that means parents who are responsive, attuned to the needs of their child and flexible in their approach.

Jannt86 · 28/01/2020 08:19

PS I'm not feeding my ego at all by being there. Believe me it would be MUCH easier for me to sit downstairs with a glass of wine and let her howl. But attachment is RECIPROCAL. If it doesn't feel great for me then it probably doesn't feel good for her either

OP posts:
BlackNails · 28/01/2020 08:51

OP you are absolutely right not to leave your child to cry it out. Everything we know about building attachment in our children supports meeting their needs and responding when they cry. It took my oldest a long time to learn to cry simply because she was so used to her needs not being met she had learned not to bother crying.
@UKABC you have made a lot of, frankly, uneducated comments about parenting an adopted child. There are very, very real reasons for parenting in a therapeutic way that builds attachment and it is not being an 'adoption purist' to know you do not leave your child to cry themselves to sleep.

UKABC · 28/01/2020 08:59

I’m not going to bother answering the comments from people with extreme views who love to victimise their adopted children and their own situation to others, as we’re never going to see eye to eye. They also love to feel offended when you use certain words - for example ‘manipulate’ which all kids do - and they love to make you feel bad about it. I believe this extremist purist approach that many adoptive parents seem to take is actually quite egoistic and detrimental to adopted children and leads to many children experiencing problems in the future. I have two adopted children, and several friends with adopted children, so I speak from my own experience and from testing different approaches. However, I will respond to the OP, particularly:

PS I'm not feeding my ego at all by being there. Believe me it would be MUCH easier for me to sit downstairs with a glass of wine and let her howl.

Would it be much easier though? I don’t think it would really. It will be a lot more difficult actually as you have to leave your ow ego and needs aside and put the long-term needs of your daughter and her development first. There are plenty of studies out there that show that the approach I suggested can be productive. Just google it and you will find plenty of research about it, including:

www.nhs.uk/news/pregnancy-and-child/leaving-babies-to-cry-will-improve-their-sleep-study-says/

Obviously different children respond to different approaches. However, you mentioned that you’ve been in this situation for a while so maybe it is time to try a different approach.

The approach that you are currently following and the ones others have suggested to you will just make you remain a slave to your child’s bedtime routine for years and years to come, just like that person who had to drive their child for a year so that they could nap. Some people do enjoy this process and feeling like their child is a victim and that they themselves are in a terrible situation. They love to complain to others about it so that others feel sorry for them. This is not healthy for you nor for your child and is just creating a really unhealthy habit.

You really need to leave this notion aside that letting a 2 year old cry will traumatise the child - it will not! Balance is the key. The important thing is that you have a loving and affectionate bedtime routine beforehand, that you explain the process clearly to your toddler, and that you return in the morning full of love and affection again. What would actually traumatise the child is if you let them cry without all the other stuff. But no one is suggesting that. Also the suggestion that a 2 year old will learn how to sleep by themselves through being settled by an adult is frankly bollocks. This may be the case for a 1 year old or baby, but not a 2 year old.

UKABC · 28/01/2020 09:03

@BlackNails just because you don’t like or agree with what you are reading, and just because it doesn’t conform to your own notion of the world, doesn’t make something uneducated. I can assure you that I’m more educated on attachment theory and therapeutic parenting than most in this forum. Again, the key here is balance!

Jannt86 · 28/01/2020 09:21

There's nothing extremist about what I'm saying and it is advice I would give to ANY parent not just adoptee because it's what has been evidentially shown to help babies develop strong attachment to their caregiver and improve their LIFE LONG chances of being emotionally healthy. What evidence do you have that your method works since you're pushing it so hard? As I said there is a growing epidemic of children with mental and emotional health issues that grow with them into adulthood and my strong belief is that we need to fight this with love not war. You can be firm with a child and teach them good values whilst still being emotionally available. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I cba to argue with you either tbh. I just wonder how many adopted children you've parented or seen grow up that you feel able to contradict literally every professional body concerned with parenting...

OP posts:
jellycatspyjamas · 28/01/2020 10:17

You really need to leave this notion aside that letting a 2 year old cry will traumatise the child

It’s not that crying traumatises children, that’s a ridiculous notion. It’s that for many adopted children, them crying in infancy will have produced no response at all or any angry, frightening response - which is traumatic for infants and fosters insecure, possibly disorganised attachment patterns. By using strategies like CIO in infants with attachment difficulties or where attachment hadn’t been secure, you revisit the trauma of not having a response, not having your needs met and that can be retraumatising for children.

All focus in early development and especially early placement is best placed on building a secure relationship with your child, which in turn supports secure attachment.

I don’t love to victimise my children, they are far from being victims but they live every day with the emotional, psychological and physical affects of their early life experiences. They need and respond well to a different approach, one which interestingly enough is consistent with theories relating to trauma and recovery.

I can assure you that I’m more educated on attachment theory and therapeutic parenting than most in this forum.

That’s quite a claim to make given some of the very experienced, very knowledgeable people here who I’ve learned a huge amount from. Given your stated level of education, it’s interesting that your opinion conflicts with every main theorist in relating to parenting, trauma and development. Have you got some source reading that isn’t drawn from the Daily Mail?

jellycatspyjamas · 28/01/2020 10:32

And the article you’ve linked to was a small scale study in which half the participants had dropped out by three months (the point at which results were measured). The report clearly states the sample size was too small to indicate any method of sleep training is better than any other and makes a claim for a Dodo outcome.

There’s nothing to suggest any of the research participants had attachment difficulties, early separation or trauma which would be considered significant factors impacting a child’s development which would be monitored in any study relating to children and young people.

The article is far from a ringing endorsement of CIO in adopted children.

sassygromit · 28/01/2020 12:34

UKABC the research about dc crying/discipline says in a nutshell that to teach a child how to self soothe and how to be empathetic to others, you soothe them. The soothing them both calms them at the time and builds connection between them which makes them want to listen to you , and makes them happy, and also teaches them how soothing is done. So if they are crying because they want something they can't have, you don't give in but you do at the same time as saying "no" sympathise with them, and soothe.

I think allowing adopted children space to deal with their own problems is a good idea but when the child is older - not at 2 years. And the way to help an adopted child to be able to do this is to teach them skills - soothing but also other skills which children can learn gradually - like, judgement, empathy, self control - it is a gradual learning curve.

I do think that limiting choices endlessly and too much control is disastrous for adopted children. But the above isn't doing that - and applies to both adopted and non adopted children.

Sleep training - from a quick look, there is research saying that sleep training (as distinct from CIO which is the more harsher and outdated notion I think?) or holding a child til they sleep both are fine if done well attuned to the child's needs.

If you have a look at ahaparenting.com or parentingscience both set out the research on all this. Obviously things change over time but both these sites state the current state of research, and there is a lot of research generally saying the same thing. Both appear to be comprehensive too and so will set out the dissenting research.

Penelope Leach was saying a lot of it back in the 70s!

The emotionally intelligent adults I know either learned it as kids from their parents or as adults from books. Kids can't learn to get rid of their demons on their own as children, and having to do it as an adult instead, later, is a lot more painful. in fact, if you help dc well, they won't have demons to get rid of.

sassygromit · 28/01/2020 12:36

*between them and you I meant (line 3)

PS, I can really relate to the idea that it would be a feck of a lot easier to be downstairs with a glass of wine! But it only lasts a few years, and if we get it right we keep our relationships good with our dc.

Sugarfreejelly · 28/01/2020 13:40

Sorry if I’ve missed this OP, how much sleep is she actually getting? What’s the ratio between naps and bedtime? My AC (adopted at 8 months) only ever napped for about 30 mins during the day but slept 12-13 hours per night and they were fine with this. Could it be that she doesn’t need the naps during the day?

Jannt86 · 28/01/2020 14:14

Thanks all for your replies. Sugarfreejelly she's currently sleeping about 10-11 hours overnight although she rarely now goes the whole night without waking at some point. Occasionally she can be quickly soothed and is more or less straight back to sleep. Other times she will be up longer and trying her best to actually get up and play. Last night we had this at 2am. We just keep the room dark and pretend to be asleep until she does the same. Once or twice I think this has been for around 4 hours although more typically it's half an hour to an hour. Then she'll sleep anything from not at all to an hour and a half during the day. I think she really does need the naps as on days when she doesnt she is really crabby by the end of the day and once was even almost falling asleep on the floor. I think all we can really do is continue to be consistent with wakeup and sleep and she'll hopefully get the idea. I've resolved to the fact that an hour in the car to grab a cheeky coffee whilst she has a nap is preferable to a grumpy sleep deprived baby. TBH I'm feeling quite a bit happier about it all it's just this thread that's become a little.... dramatic Grin Thanks everyone for being so helpful and reassuring xx

OP posts:
UKABC · 28/01/2020 14:52

@sassygromit thanks for your balanced response. I think we are mixing terminology. I didn’t suggest that parents shouldn’t soothe their children before bedtime, on the contrary I said that’s an important part of a healthy bedtime routine and I do that each night to both my kids through a massage until they feel relaxed. However, children need to learn how to fall asleep by themselves. Often when they go through a sleep regression such as the one the OP is going through, they won’t want to sleep and will cry so that you stay in the room each night until they do so. Then what happens is that each day they will wake up at night crying because they don’t know how to fall asleep without the parent being there. There is plenty of research out there that demonstrates the approach I suggested works and it has worked well with my kids who sleep uninterrupted from 7pm to 7am and only occasionally will call out for me crying due to a nightmare. Here is an interesting article about this and a research paper:

expectingscience.com/2016/04/12/critics-of-cry-it-out-fundamentally-misunderstand-how-stress-affects-the-brain/

aasm.org/resources/practiceparameters/review_nightwakingschildren.pdf

sassygromit · 28/01/2020 15:04

However, children need to learn how to fall asleep by themselves the research I have seen says that children don't need to learn this, that neither sleep training nor staying with a dc until they are asleep is damaging in itself, but that leaving a child to cry themselves to sleep isn't the same thing as sleep training and wouldn't be a good way of doing it. I haven't read your article yet though. My dc have wanted me to stay with them while asleep while ill for example - does this not happen with yours? Thanks for saying my post was balanced, that is good.

jellycatspyjamas · 28/01/2020 16:06

There is plenty of research out there that demonstrates the approach I suggested works
I guess it depends on what you’re trying to achieve - I’ll happily balance my need for my child to sleep with my need for them not to be distressed doing so. Some of the literature suggests leaving small children to cry for anywhere up to 70 minutes - nothing on this earth would stop me responding to my child crying for that length of time. Research shows that effective parenting strategies also need to align with your own ethics, morals and value base - it’s not helpful for parents to act against their own beliefs for the sake of a good nights sleep for them or their children.

It’s fine that this works for you - whatever gets you where you need to be, but it doesn’t suit every child or every parent and I’d still maintain isn’t ok for children who have experienced early neglect or trauma, and I can’t see any literature that suggests it is. But to claim someone is damaging their child by not making them cry it out?

Strugglingmum73 · 28/01/2020 19:43

They do not need to learn how to soothe themselves at 1! She’s a baby. She wants and needs her parent/parents there and that is normal and healthy.

I do not have extreme views at all. If you leave a baby to cry they will learn to settle themselves because they will learn that they can’t trust an adult/parent to come and help them when they need help.

sassygromit · 28/01/2020 20:37

UK I looked at the first link and had a quick look - it is a personal blog post and she has explained her reasoning and provided links.

I personally see ahaparenting as slightly different as the author specialises in the child psychology and has years of experience and she is generally comprehensive at providing and reviewing the research as I have said previously - and she has her own bias which she states, but it is of course an informed bias - anyway, just in case it is of interest I attach one of her articles on the subject:

www.ahaparenting.com/Ages-stages/newborns/case-against-ferber-sleep

Alljamissweet · 29/01/2020 21:09

I drove AS around every day for 37 minutes until he stopped napping.
I also did it at bedtime until he was 4. Nothing else worked. You do what you have to do.

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