21MO not sleeping

[Jannt86]

I'm still at my wit's end with my 21MO sleeping. Maybe I'm expecting too much. She used to be an angel sleeping intil a few weeks ago but now she's just literally refusing to nap in her bed even though I can tell she's shattered. I even offer to cuddle her to sleep but she refuses this too. The only thing that is a dead cert is being in the car (even if it's 9am ) but sorry I refuse to be manupulated into taking a car journey every day just to get to sleep. We then have a solid nightime routine but it's the same again. It doesn't seem to matter when we put her down or how much sleep she's had during the day we are still there normally a good hour waiting for her to fall asleep. Then she normally ends up in our bad in the middle of the night. It's just driving me nuts because I'm desperately trying to get her into a good routine and I just feel like nothing is working and I feel like I'm failing her and we are all knackered. I feel like I should be able to comfort her to get her to sleep and feel like I should be able to recognise better when she's ready to sleep. Does anything actually work when kids get like this or do I just have to accept that she's never going to be a decent sleeper again?

She's 21 months old if she needs the car to fall asleep and you can afford the fuel then I'd do it. In fact I did do it 5-6 days a week for a year until she stopped needing naps around 2.5. It was that bad winter with lots of snow followed by a really hot summer a couple of years ago otherwise I would've probably taken her for a walk in her push chair until she fell asleep in that instead. I never viewed it as her manipulating me though but rather the other way round.

She's adopted from foster care, she has attachment and trauma issues so I would do anything to make sure she felt safe enough to get the sleep she needed.

Yes 'manipulate' was the wrong word but I definitely DO think it's becoming a learned behaviour but I'm starting to resolve to the fact that we may just have to accept this until she drops the nap. My number one priority is that she feels safe and loved which is why I'm keen for her to be in a nice secure predictable sleep routine but not sure I can do that when the principle problem is that she's resisting any routine. She's allowed in our bed pretty much any time she wants it overnight. We stay with her when she's falling asleep until she's flat out and never leave her even for 5 minutes. I'm just not sure we can do anything else to help her feel safe. X

Does she go to bed at the same time every night and get up at the same time every morning? If so you have a routine.

We found the latter a game changer. She has a gro glow clock in her room and we have the phrase one the morning when your clock turns yellow with the sun' and I do an alarm on my phone for when she's in with me.

We'd go out somewhere in the morning (Park, shopping when the weather was bad, swimming, play group, the weekly shop) so she'd burn off energy and then drive around til she fell asleep on the way home. When we got home, I'd carry her in and she'd nap on me. Being in a car seat is like having a big hug and movement is soothing, that's why most kids fall asleep in the car. I say most because some adopted/fostered children find car journeys too traumatising.

The other thing I found when it came to sleep is that every so often I'd have to increase the amount of exercise she had in a day. Getting an indoor trampoline helped with this though.

Don't worry about getting her into a routine for nursery, etc, if she goes, that'll be their job.

We stopped day time naps when she either didn't fall asleep in the car or woke up when I picked her up once home on a regular basis. The only unexpected issue we had when she dropped the day time nap is that she went from sleeping through in her own room to coming in with me virtually every night to recreate that physical closeness.

Having some similar issues with 20.5 month old. Finding the weighted blanket is great at helping her settle, sleep and stay asleep. Might be worth looking into getting one.

I understand what you are going through. Kids this age go through sleep regressions as part of their physical development. Hence your daughter used to sleep well and is now struggling to fall asleep. Our adopted son went through something similar when he was two. Basically kids this age need to ‘re-learn’ how to fall asleep by themselves and it’s important that you don’t create a sleeping crutch that will involve a dependency on you as a parent. It’s tough to deal with this as a parent, but we all had to learn how to fall sleep by ourselves. This period has nothing to do with trauma or being adopted, as all kids go through this. In my opinion it’s important that you deal with this as you would with your own biological kid and that you don’t create excuses for your daughter just because she is adopted.

In our case what worked was a shorter daily nap (30 mins) right after lunch and remaining consistent with bedtime routines. We follow a ‘strict’ bedtime routine and put him in bed each night at the same time (7pm). Each night we explain to our boy the process that we will follow - we will have a nice bath, read a book for 5 mins, turn off the lights, give him massage in the head for 5 mins and then mummy or daddy will leave the room as it’s time to sleep. During the first one to two weeks our boy used to cry for 15-20 minutes and then fall asleep. We have a camera in his bedroom so we could watch him to ensure he was ok. We only really went back to the bedroom if he cried for over 30 mins or got out of bed and when we did this our interactions with him were brief and involved reminding him that it was time to sleep and not picking him up from bed. By remaining consistent with this routine even thought it was difficult to watch him cry, he now falls asleep by himself and sleeps well throughout the night. We followed this exact approach with our older child and it also worked. Obviously this suggestion is for a child that has been living with you for a while and is well settled, and not for a child who has just been placed with you (obviously for a child that has been recently been placed with you, the strategy would be completely different). However I have assumed from what you wrote that your daughter is settled.

Frankly the suggestion that you should drive your daughter at night until she falls asleep and then put her in bed (even if this takes a year), is not realistic and would be really taxing and unsustainable for you as a parent. You would also be creating a really bad habit. I completely understand that adopted kids went through a lot, however there are skills in life that we all have to learn. Sometimes being strict is necessary for kids to learn healthy habits and this is all part of being a parent. On this kind of thing, you need to treat your daughter with a sense of normality and again not create excuses for her just because she is adopted (e.g. driving her around each night so she can fall asleep). The reality is that no toddler wants to go to bed if they have the choice. They would rather stay awake. And yes, toddlers will definitely try to manipulate you before bedtime (that’s part of being a kid), so don’t be afraid to use certain terminology just because some highly sensitive people might feel offended. Also, being strict on certain things doesn’t mean you can’t be a loving and affectionate parent. Being strict on some things is actually one of the things that makes you an excellent parent!

Also if I were you I would post a message in the general parents forum to understand how people with biological children have dealt with this sort of issue, since in this forum you will come across a lot of what I like to call ‘adoption purists’ who will give you really misguided advice.

She's allowed in our bed pretty much any time she wants it overnight. We stay with her when she's falling asleep until she's flat out and never leave her even for 5 minutes. I'm just not sure we can do anything else to help her feel safe. X

I can’t remember how long she’s been with you, she may just be starting to feel safe and be pushing against that (because she’s been let down and moved about. I don’t think we can divorce our children’s behaviour from adoption and trauma because it’s always in the mix somewhere even if not explicit or obvious. Hang in there with building a routine, chat to her as you go through the routine (now we’re going to have diner, next we’ll have a nice bath then get cosy in bed for sleeping). Is part of the issue that she can physically get out of bed now? If you’ve moved from a cot to bed she might be missing the feeling of being enclosed (maybe why the car seat works). A weighted blanket might work to help her feel physically secure.

One thing I wouldn’t do is leave her to cry tbh, because it’s possible that would trigger her back to being left and not having her needs met with birth mum. Maybe go into her room comfort her (putting your hand on her head/chest/holding her hand) and then leave again. Developmentally she may just now be realising she’s on her own at sleep time and find that quite scary - does she have a special cuddle toy that might help her settle and soothe?

Also try and find some space for you to get some rest, I know when my two aren’t sleeping my own sleep goes haywire and I’m not so patient or resilient when I’m tired. As a last resort use the car if need be but not every night. Are there times she’s more settled than others, can you see any links between changes in the home (eg a new room or new toys etc), I know my two really struggle in January coming off the excitement of Christmas and January birthdays so sleep is always a bit less settled. Also have a chat to your health visitor who might have some ideas.

Just to clarify we're not having to drive her to sleep in the evening! I'd never get myself into that deathtrap but nap time it's pretty much all that'll work now. We are just having to stay with her til she falls asleep in the evening but that will sometimes be hours rather than minutes. I always said I would NEVER leave her to cry. Sorry but I just don't agree with it even in a not adopted child. Whatever that child's reason for crying is they're telling you they crave you and they need you so what kindof message is it sending to abandon them? I'll be honest I lost it a bit with her one night when she wss obviously just making a game of escaping her crib and I shut her bedroom door. I lasted about 30 seconds before I couldn't stand the howling any more I don't judge anyone but I just don't know how they can stand to let their child 'cry it out'

Anyway.... we have had a bit of an enlightenment for the past few days. We're not stressing so much about naps and just focussing on consistent wake up and bedtime (as a few on here have advised) and it's generally working well. Yesterday we were out and she ended up napping really quite late but she still went to sleep quite well in the evening at the normal time! Fingers crossed this is the start of returning to a somewhat workable routine. Don't think we're going to stop her coming into our bed overnight though but that's fine... she snores less than my hubby so no biggie x

@UKABC I wasn't suggesting she drive her child around at bedtime, simply at nap time.

I disagree with using the word manipulative when it comes to such a young child because it has negative connotations. The words that we use to describe our children form our view of them.

You are right that a good routine to make a child feel safe at bedtime is vital. However advocating CIO for an adopted child whose history you don't know is wrong as @jellycatspyjamas says in her post.

I'm not sure what CIO means but if you mean leaving them to cry then I WON'T be doing that. I agree that manipulative was the wrong term and I already corrected myself for that. However I do think we overthink these things a bit sometimes. She's not just an adoptee she's a toddler at the age that most toddlers learn to test boundaries. I suspect this is playing more of a part in her sleep changes than her background tbh but it makes no difference. I'm genuinely only interested in parenting with attachment at heart so it makes no difference why she's doing it in that respect. She's an utter delight and my entire world. I take on board the point about our words having negative connotations but it was a slip of the keyboard. I don't regard her as manipulative but just a toddler really doing what toddlers do. I love her and I would do anything to keep her happy and safe and I'm confident that deep down she knows this xx

I agreed about the "manipulative" but saw you corrected what you meant. Toddlers might resist sleep for all sorts of reasons, but if tired will fall asleep despite themselves in a car, or pram. I would make the effort to get her to sleep in the car or pram for a midday nap because I think the more sleep the better for dc, for their brain development. When they grow out of needing it, they won't go to sleep in the car or anywhere else. But if it isn't possible it isn't possible.

You had mentioned in other posts illness (is all better now?) and behaviour, pushing the boundaries, and nursery, and everything might all be linked. A book I think you might really like is Penelope Leach's Your Child 0 - 5 again written by a child psychologist (like ahaparenting) as she tells you the child's point of view at each age, which is really interesting - as well as have strategies for things like sleeping and everything else under the sun - and also ideas about activities which are best for each particular age, as tailored to/stimulating for their current stage of development.

I wouldn't leave a dc to cry it out either. My dc have gone through different needs at different stages, and I tend to go with it, because I think getting a lot of sleep is important.

@jannt86 CIO does mean cry it out. I'm sorry you feel the need to apologise for using 'manipulative' again. My comment was not aimed at you, I was trying to explain to another poster who'd used it why I felt it was the wrong term.

Unfortunately because of the way Mumsnet organises posts, threads can end up messy with people posting responses to other people's posts after someone else's post making everything confusing.

You sound like a great mum and overthinking is part of that. I honestly and naively thought it would get easier as she learnt to talk but I find myself more confused than ever!

I always said I would NEVER leave her to cry. Sorry but I just don't agree with it even in a not adopted child. Whatever that child's reason for crying is they're telling you they crave you and they need you so what kindof message is it sending to abandon them?

Frankly this is nonsense. This is exactly the sort of thing that I was referring to when I mentioned adoption purism. You are not abandoning your child just because you let them cry in bed. Likewise, you are not traumatising your child when you let them cry during a tantrum. You will also not traumatise your adopted child when you discipline them. Again, you need to treat your daughter with a sense of normality on many situations in life. Otherwise you will not actually be helping her in the future and she will grow up feeling different because she is adopted and not knowing how to deal with issues as an individual. She will always require external support, wether it is from a parent (you) or a partner in life. You need to teach her how to be independent and it all starts at this age. And in a way, on many situations you, as a parent, need to leave your ego and desires to on side and actually do what’s best for her, rather than what makes you feel good. Of course you feel better as a parent if you pick her up and hug her whenever she cries (this obviously makes you as a parent sleep better at night and feel good about yourself), but this is not actually what’s always best for her. As much as it is important that you care for and deal with things differently with an adopted child, on certain things it’s ok to be a bit stricter. The only thing your approach is going to lead to is an inability to fall asleep by herself for many years to come. This will actually lead to her not knowing how to be independent, and you eventually feeling tired, frustrated and deep down feeling resented. Being a good parent is knowing how to balance when to be caring and affectionate and when to be stricter. Extremes are never good for anyone.

Also, adopted kids need to be given the space and opportunity to learn how to deal with their past and ‘inner demons’ as individuals. You as a parent shouldn’t shield your daughter from feeling these feelings, but should actually support her and show her that after she felt all of these things (e.g. after crying), that you are still there for her as a caring and loving parent. This idea that you shouldn’t leave an adopted child to cry is just feeding unresolved trauma and leading to much more serious issues when your daughter is older.