Need advice on nearly 3 year old

[Coldonthecoast]

Hi, I hope it’s ok to post here not being an adopter...
I work in a nursery and one of my key children is in foster care.
Not wanting to give too many details but he is fostered by his aunt in a houseful of cousins. He was taken from his mother at birth and has lived with his aunt ever since.
He is nearly 3 but has very little language and displays very challenging behaviour both at nursery and at home.
He is very aggressive towards adults often nipping, pulling hair, trying to bite etc. Even when he comes for a cuddle he comes at you with his fists.
Today he upped his game by pulling down his pants. We didn’t react and told the other children to carry on listening to the story and not to look at him. He danced about in front of another nursery nurse and moved out of reach every time she tried to pull up his pants. He then tried to climb on her knee and she stood up so he couldn’t. He then took off his shoes, trousers and pants and started to strip his top half. At this point another member of staff carried him to another area and left him there (she stood at the other side of the baby gate). He shouted and cried. She went in and helped him dress telling him if he stripped off again she would go out of the gate again.
Does this sound reasonable? We generally try to ignore negative behaviour. I do just wonder with him being looked after whether we should deal with him differently. I’d hate us to be adding to any attachment issues he may have by leaving him.
Is there a better way we could’ve dealt with him? Will he have attachment problems if he’s been fostered since birth?
Sorry for the long post. He’s a lovely little boy (at least he’s trying to be!!). I want to do what’s best for him.

I think you are right to think he needs to be dealt with differently and that caring fit him should have a therapeutic focus. I’m not an adopter but I know that often time outs are not felt to be suitable for children who have been removed from birth parents.

I’m hoping someone knowledgeable will see this and advise.

I think Attachment issues definitely could manifest in children removed at birth - it is a huge loss for a child to be removed from their birth parent

Have you engaged with the sn as a setting? Has he had a speech and language assessment?

He’s just moved to us from out of area. He’s being referred to SALT.

The SW has been to see him in nursery, but he didn’t seem to have any insight really.
The family are asking us for support with his behaviour. My manager is asking our parent support worker to go and see them.

Absolutely attachment could be a factor. Those early brain pathways will have been affected right from the start. There may also have been negative behaviour during the pregnancy, so there could be alcohol or drugs damage that is becoming more clear as he grows older.

He could be very scared his primary carer won't return, it might be harder for him to trust you, plus he might find the new environment overwhelming. The stripping off could be a number of things - could be a desperate strategy to show you he's not coping, could be sensory, could be something else. I think trying to spot the early signs before he hits that point would be the way forward (I expect he escalates fast, but there will be warning signs as you get to know him). Have you a positive quiet spot you could take him off to, to do something else? I think you've already guessed that you want to avoid "rejecting" or shaming reactions, as those will deepen his panic.

The push-pull is very common and is fear-based often - he wants your connection, but he's scared he can't trust you. He won't know it, but he'll be testing you: do you still look after me if I do this? What about if I do this? Try and keep calm and consistent - it's not his fault that it may take him a long time to believe an adult can be trusted. If you can get hold of a copy of Caro Archer "tiddlers to toddlers" it has good activities to use play to build connection with traumatised children.

@FlatheadScrewdriver thanks for all that. Yes I suspect it’s all more than just the usual attention seeking. Poor little guy . I’ll try to get a copy of that book you mentioned. I just want to help him manage himself.

I think helping him to reach his potential speech wise will also potentially help his frustration as he will be better able to communicate , so I would definitely prioritise SALT assessment

Often when traumatised children behave like this they are either trying to avoid something or because they are feeling invisible and are hurting. You use the phrase 'attention seeking' which often has negative connotations associated with it. As parents, especially those of us who follow the therapeutic parenting model, we rephrase this as 'attachment seeking' instead. By ignoring his behaviour you have forced him to take more extreme measures to get his need for attention met. Another good book is called parenting with theraplay which explains more about trauma issues and gives games to play.

To answer your question about trauma for a child removed at birth. Current theory says that secure attachments start in the womb during the last 3 months of pregnancy although it's entirely possible that it could be even earlier. For a child to have been removed at birth, it means that the risk of them suffering significant harm with their birth family is extremely high. So you can only begin to imagine the chaos they experienced while in the womb. Birth mother will be aware long before the child is born that they are likely to be removed from them. This chaos and the high level of the stress hormones which the baby experiences before it's born followed by being removed from their birth mother mean that they have experienced significant trauma while still being preverbal. They will never be able to process this with words and so are left with feelings for which they have no explanation. Also they will seek to recreate the chaos and high levels of stress hormones within themselves and their environment because it is what they feel comfortable with.

Today he upped his game by pulling down his pants.

Try to think about the language you’re using about children of this age - saying he “upped his game” suggests he has some knowledge, understanding or control over his behaviour or that his behaviour is purposefully naughty. He’s trying to have his needs met, he can’t communicate those needs to you and is unlikely to even know what these needs are but if you always think about behaviour as communication and think “what is he trying to tell us about himself just now”, you’ll go a long way to helping him work out what his needs are. You’ll also avoid the pitfall of seeing him and his behaviour as problematic.

I agree try and catch things early, treat him as much younger than his chronological age - most looked after children are developmentally delayed - and also think about the reasons for his move into your setting, does that mark another change or loss for him?

I think you need to be a bit of a detective with traumatised children - especially in spotting patterns that might show you what is going on for them, as they may be using behaviour to communicate what they cannot put into words.

So, in this case:

• what was the story about? so many things may seem unrelated from the perspective of the adults, but may be triggering for the child

• what was happening before this behaviour started? had there been anything unusual about the previous activities, or his reactions during the day?

• where was he sitting in relation to the adults and other children? is there any pattern about his behaviour and proximity to specific children or adults?

• does he react differently to some members of staff than others? with some of the children compared to others?

In general, ignoring/shutting out is not going to work when they are trying to make a connection/relationship in order to feel safe.

Why wasn't he allowed to sit on the nursery nurse's knee? Did it seem as if it would somehow 'reward' his behaviour? The 'rewards and punishments' approach doesn't work when behaviour is driven by emotional needs and fear, because it relies on rational choice, and the child is not making a rational choice to behave in that way.

A good book is Ross Greene's 'The Explosive Child', and he does one for school situations called 'Lost in School'. This might be a good starting point:
Lives in the Balance

There is a free Facebook discussion group for teachers - it seems to focus more on school age rather than pre-school, but there is a huge range of people very happy to share experiences and expertise.

Narration can be really helpful in situations like this, many traumatised children don’t understand and can’t regulate their emotions. “I can see that you’re cross because it’s Fred’s turn to sit on my knee, I think that you want a cuddle to make you feel better.”

I'm assuming he wasn't allowed to sit on their knee as he was naked from the waist down. While it doesn't seem a big issue to a parent to have their child sit on them without clothes on in a nursery setting there is a whole host of health and safety issues and safeguarding laws that basically state a child needs to be dressed if sitting on an adults lap.

host of health and safety issues and safeguarding laws that basically state a child needs to be dressed if sitting on an adults lap.

There’s some validity in what you’re saying in that in normal circumstances safe care guidance would say children should be dressed in nursery/school - common sense also tells us that. To my knowledge though there’s no law that says a nursery nurse can’t pick up a half naked child and put them in their lap. From a safeguarding point of view it could be argued that picking the child up, comforting them by sitting them on your lap and helping them get dressed again is considerably kinder than carrying the child to a separate area, isolating them and withdrawing from them by standing on the other side of a gate.

There may be nursery nurses who aren’t comfortable having a semi naked child on their lap, and there may be guidance within the school, nursery or local authority which prevents it but legislation isn’t as detailed or specific (short of specifying actual offences against children eg sexual abuse, physical abuse).

In any event, recognising the behaviour as communication, as an attachment/proximity seeking behaviour means finding ways to be physically close to the child without shaming them, working within safeguarding and H&S guidance. If I thought that what a child needed in that moment was to be physically comforted, I’d find a way to do that.

Would a handy blanket/towel etc solve that issue? If it was soft it could give extra comfort too, which would help with treating him at a younger emotional age?

@jellycatspyjamas the child is new to the nursery - it would be like a stranger picking up a child to comfort them, not a good idea at all afaik. I agree that the behaviour is communicating a need, and that needs are not being met.

@Coldonthecoast I think that it sounds like the child needs some quite significant help, and you should find out about getting input from a psychologist, as well as SALT. It sounds as though it is beyond the remit of the social worker. It sounds as though the child is not ready for nursery, but at the same time isn't getting their needs met at home and so a bit of thought needs to go into it. It might be that psychologists work with the acting parents for a while. It might be worth posting also on a different section of mumsnet such as child behaviour - but bottom line is that there is going to be some confusion arising from posts on mumsnet, and getting some proper real life help would be best.

Also, just to make a comparison as illustration, I would and I think most parents would be incandescent with rage if they were not called in that situation, and if a nursery nurse who didn't know the child tried to pick them up and comfort them instead. If this situation is different because the acting parents don't have that level of relationship, then that is the problem here, probably.

@jellycatspyjamas the child is new to the nursery - it would be like a stranger picking up a child to comfort them, not a good idea at all afaik. I agree that the behaviour is communicating a need, and that needs are not being met.

I’m assuming you missed the part where the child had climbed up on the workers knee (presumably seeking physical closeness) and the worker put them back down and rejected further approaches from the child by standing up. The child made the approach, which suggests they wanted to be picked up and held by this person.

Hi jellycat - no I don't agree - if the child is seeking affection from a stranger that is more indication that the real problem needs to be worked out - the answer is not simply for the stranger to comfort.

The fact that we disagree on this is what I meant about confusion for the OP, ie help is needed from the right people in real life.

Of course there’s a problem that needs to be worked out in the longer term, but in the immediate term the physical contact should be child led, in that if they initiate it the initial response is to comfort the child and redirect as appropriate. Providing initial comfort doesn’t mean ignoring the wider issue, it’s possible to meet both the immediate and longer term needs of the child.

The fact that you and I disagree is really neither here nor there, the OP has said she’s arranging ongoing advice so I’m sure her childcare strategy isn’t going to be entirely based on random views online but each of us has something to bring to the situation based on our varied experiences.

I’m not entirely sure what your issue is with me tbh, when I look back you seem to be purposely picking arguments with me so I’m just going to stop engaging with you on threads from here on in. I’m interested in supporting people struggling with adoption issues, I’ve no interest in getting into a pissing contest with someone for whatever reason. If you disagree, disagree but please stop tagging me in posts because I won’t be replying to you.

I asked the question because the response I would have made (not knowing anything about the nursery's policies), would be to say

'Oh, do you want to sit on my knee? How lovely! Quick, let's pull up your trousers and then sit on my knee and we'll both listen to the story'

Yes, a child going to a stranger for comfort is a concern, but in this situation, it sounds as if all the adults are strangers.

Of course, it may be that the nursery has policies about physical contact, or responding to 'inappropriate' behaviour, which is presumably why the nursery nurse responded in this way.

I understand why, in this day and age, staff might not feel comfortable with a semi naked child sitting on their knee.

But those policies may need to be revisited in this context, because it sounds as if this child does need someone to go to for comfort and safety. Hopefully the psych can advise, and help with policies and boundaries that can make the child and the staff feel safe.

One of the best bits of advice I read was to never say 'no'. Before anyone reacts in horror, that does not mean having no boundaries! But stating the context in which you can agree, eg

'Mum, can I have some ice cream?'
'Yes, after supper'

After school demand 'I want to go swimming!'
'We will go swimming on Saturday after breakfast'
Tantrum ensues
'I WANT TO SWIM NOW!'
'We are going to go swimming, on Saturday after breakfast'

Behaviour saying 'I want physical contact'
Verbal direction 'Let's pull up your trousers and you can sit on my lap'

This is the last time I will tag, as you wish @jellycatspyjamas - no I don't have an issue with you at all, I disagree with some of the things you say quite strongly - and agree with other things you say quite strongly (and have said that in the past). There is nothing personal about it at all. To go back to the issue, I think comfort in a nursery setting re falls, hits, poorly tummy and that sort of thing fine, but I think that comfort beyond that is going to be confusing to the child, and my message was rather than the nursery staff try to deal with things differently from how they would any other child it would be better to get help from a psychologist. But anyway, in future I won't tag, no worries.