2 teen DC - Conflicting needs - a bit long, sorry.

[UnderTheNameOfSanders]

I'm struggling to work out what to do for the best.

DD1 is now 19. For the last nearly 3 years she has become more detached from the family, focussing solely on nice-but-uninspiring boyfriend.
She does nothing around the house, doesn't communicate with us but is quite vulnerable within herself, not good at looking after her health, managing friendships etc. But she is more or less managing work (apprenticeship) and looking after her money.
She would move out if she could afford it, but BF does not have permanent job (see earlier), and she is doing an apprenticeship. We could afford to subsidise her to move out but don't think it is right for her for us to pay for them to play happy families. If we make it easy, we feel the next thing is they will both be unemployed living off us rather than becoming independent adults. All her ambition she used to have seems gone, along with the few friends she had before him.

DD2, 5 years younger, used to adore her big sister. But 3 years of being ignored has taken her toll. She is struggling with being a young teen, and with school, but most of all with being discarded. I asked what would help, and she said for DD1 to move out as then the hurt she feels wouldn't be so in her face.

So for her long term good, we think DD1 needs to be with us for now. But everyone else's short term good might well be served by her moving out. (Plus most 'rent a room' don't want someone so young).

Suggestions on how to manage?

You say dd1 would move out, and I wondered if that means it comes up a lot in conversation or she says that when asked? Has she asked for a subsidy so she can move? And if you asked her what she thinks about her boyfriend not having a job, and will he ever have a job - what does she say? And when you say he is nice, do you mean he is really nice, caring, or that he doesn't appear to make too many waves but you don't know him well? And when you say she doesn't look after health do you mean sleep/eating/not seeing doc when she needs to/too much partying? Sorry, lots of q!

Good questions.

A year ago when she started apprenticeship we asked her plans, and she wanted to move in with BF within 2 months. We said nice idea but with starting work might be better to stay at home to start with, and anyway you can't afford it. We said both would have to be saving the additional cost of moving out for 6 months before we would be guarantors. Things occasionally come up re what additional bills etc - seems to be being driven by her not him.

She does get apparently frustrated by him not having a proper job (currently back at a seasonal job that runs Easter-Sept, when that finished last Sept he did sod all until it came round again).

Health is eating, exercise, looking after her back. Not partying.

BF has some form of LD, as does DD but she is more able (passed all GCSEs, did L3 course at college). She really needs someone at least as able as her. He seems nice, treats her well, but no oomph at all.
She got with him first month of college, has dropped all friends pre-college, her work ethic halved, her ambitions to travel places e.g. Barcelona have gone nowhere as he has no money (and no passport).

During college we also had: unprotected sex first date, getting engaged after less than a year (with original plans to have been married by now), wanting a baby immediately (as in before college finished), not getting on with work in college then saying how hard it was and how hard done by she was having to work at weekends.

She's had counselling, we had some parental support counselling too. Everything is calmer than it was, but uneasy truce mainly relying on letting her do what she wants rather than anything properly resolved.

@UnderTheNameOfSanders if you can bear it I would say, continue as you are for another six months or until her apprenticeship ends.

Encourage subtally her to challenge him a bit, you will need to be careful not to drive them closer together but I think long run she would be better off seeing him for what he is (lazy, not up to much, draining on her time and energy etc and alienating her from her friends).

But I am not sure if keeping her at home for now will give her more chance for her to see this for herself or if maybe if they went out on their own she would more quickly spot she was working and he was not pulling his weight.

If you have spare cash could you invest in gym membership for you and her and carve out some time together, maybe with dd2? Any local gyms have a family/female special offer.

I know your dd2 is hurting but I feel if dd1 goes out on her own and that is it, then they will not have the chance to reconnect.

I would be looking for anything you can do with them both, or you and dd1, or dd1 and her dad that will wake her up to family life again.

Personally, I would not enable her to live separate from the family with this man. If he sees he can live independently with her and not pull his weight he will never let go, IMHO.

You know my youngest is 7 and adopted and my older child, a daughter, is on the autistic spectrum and 13 and is our birth child. So I have not been were you are these are just my gut feelings.

My best advice is to make home life as fun as possible but also for both this boy and your dd1 to pull as much weight in terms of rent paying and helping as possible so they have a realistic understanding of what standing on their own two feet is about. So again, cookery classes for you and dd1 or even you husband and this boy/man. Spend your money on building them up and enabling them to thrive not just enabling them to doss. (XX)

PS I hope it is not out of place to say the man is the problem.

I know you cannot just split them up, but he is causing her to lose friends and family, he is the issue (IMHO). And he may be the problem your younger child feels so left out.

Work on building up dd2. DD2 feeling good should not be dependent on dd1 leaving home.

Even at 19 she is a teen and almost a child.

I left at 19 and came back and forth for the next 17 years before marrying in my 30s (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know).

My family home was always my home and I am so grateful my parents allowed me back in my 20s after voluntary work and college and in my 30s after travel.

I am sorry if that is chilling, and I am not saying parents should do that. In my 30s I had anxiety and did not feel able to live alone. (I had CBT and am better now.)

I think/hope your dd1 will outgrow this boy, I just hope she does not get pregnant by him before then. To some extent all of this is out of your hands! So work on what is in your control, fun in the family for for dd2 and dd1, exercise and joint activities together around swimming and fitness, healthy eating etc.

On the one hand, I agree with what you have said, dd1 and boyfriend sound like different characters, he doesn't sound particularly good for her, and it is difficult to get a sense of what the draw is for her, ie what is drawing her to him. And the last thing you want is for them to expect to be supported by you if unemployed by choice. I am wondering if the relationship with the boyfriend is unhealthy in which case rather than having counselling for her to do with her relationship with you, does she need some help with self esteem? From what you have described the relationship seems to have had negative affect on her self esteem (in terms of looking after herself, losing touch with friends etc). Is he manipulative? What IS drawing her to him?! Or does she feel that she does not deserve better? A bit of travelling on her own or with a friend would probably have had a really good affect, so it is a shame about what happened about barcelona.

On the other hand, sometimes it is a question of when to let go and let dc make their mistakes. I am not sure about you, but remembering back to freshers week in halls at university there were a large number of young people of around this age making some very interesting choices which would have curled their parents' hair if the parents had known about it all!! You refer to the uneasy peace related to letting her do what she wants but to some extent it is appropriate for her age to be doing what they wants, within reason. Sometimes relationships with parents improve after the child has been independent for a bit, meaning that it is easier to return to the relationship on more equal terms. There comes a time when giving advice to another adult (your child or not) is redundant, and almost always unwelcome, unless asked for.

My feeling on balance is that a priority is to help her think more about her own well being and increase her self esteem, and just sort of side line choices she may make with boyfriend as being not so important - it is what it is, but the key thing is how she feels about herself. Is it possible to find courses on self esteem, assertiveness (ie not counselling but courses if you can find any, where she will sit with groups of people and do work groups)? Maybe spa days (with you?), massages, anything which sort of helps her focus on her own well being. Also taking her out and about so she gets to realise how much there is out there - can you find a way to drag her kicking and screaming to barcelona with her sister, and when there let her spend some time going off and exploring on her own?

I also think that a fixed period of living independently fairly soon for her may be helpful for everyone, and you could be very clear about your terms, for example, that your assistance is for a fixed period of time. You could do a rain check at the end of 6 months, say. You could see it as a sort of university experience without the university in the sense that often students will be living independently during term time and returning home for holidays, so they get to move on independently in stages. If so it possible to organise this so that she is living on her own, or in a shared house, not with boyfriend, even if they are seeing each other a lot?

It might also be worth you posting anonymously and without the adoption aspect being highlighted on other parts of mumsnet, to see what the wisdom of the masses comes up with (obviously prepared to ignore the things which are not wise!)

Sorry this is so long.

Thank you both.

The BF is very unchallenging. He basically tells her she is wonderful. But she does all the running. She spends all her spare time with him or messaging him. She says she still wants to do other stuff, but doesn't.

All the ideas re spa days, gym, etc are lovely. Except she won't. We've tried. Because she prioritises time with him above anything else. She spends every weekend there. She has lost the few friends she had by not prioritising any time to spend with them, plus (info via parent I am friends with) banging on so much about BF, wedding plans etc with nothing else to talk about anymore.

I think a lot is her pushing stuff (manipulating). We have tried to get to know BF, but they haven't made any effort to help this. The amount of times we have said come up here, do X or Y with us to give us a chance to get to know him. (Not helped initially I admit by issues around what happened in their first months). We offered to help with his CV - make the best show of his qualifications & experience, but no. His parents seem happy, she is quite a 'catch' - more able, working, can drive, nicely spoken, 'financial backing'.

The thing is, she could have a BF and family, friends, health, hobbies. But she seems to have chosen BF and stuff everything else. It feeds nicely into her 'woe is me, I never fitted in, everyone else is against me' narrative.

Non adoptive boards would tell me to kick her out / she's an adult / make her contribute at home etc. But to be honest we don't want to do anything that will lessen the little influence/input we have at the moment. We don't want her to say 'sod it, I'll live at BF parents house' because then that make the apprenticeship/job go up in smoke too, and downward spiral continues.

I think we'll have to suck it up until she qualifies sometime in the next 6 months, and somehow help DD2 through too. We don't ever want DD1 to turn round and say we rejected her / pushed her out.

Maybe once qualified we could offer to pay rent for first X months provided she is working full time.

It sounds difficult and as though you are trying to balance the various factors in order to find a way through. I am not sure the nonadopted boards would say universally kick her out / she's an adult / make her contribute at home etc you may well get a variety of responses and some new ideas and perspectives, depending on who happens to be responding on the day! I do think it is sometimes easy to be blindsided by the adoption aspect of it, and getting an outside perspective more to do with individual traits and typical behaviour of age group can be useful. I am not saying this in a critical way, though.

But she seems to have chosen BF and stuff everything else well, that is a worry, but it may change.

You saying it is her pushing the relationship is in a way a positive thing, possibly, because if she starts to realise that she has lots of time and there are lots of exciting things out there to discover, it will be easier for her to take advantage of them because she has been in driving seat in the first place.

I wonder if boyfriend is specifically significant because of her adoption story. The fact she wanted a baby so quickly etc.

I would not push her pit of the nest yet.

She may become more aware that he is not necessarily good for her.

You are doing a great job, it must be so hard.

Italiangreyhound when you say I wonder if boyfriend is specifically significant because of her adoption story. The fact she wanted a baby so quickly etc. do you mean the particular adoption story here, or are you saying it might be a typical thing for teenagers who are adopted? Sorry, I am just checking as I wasn't sure.

@yaboola I am wondering if girls who have been adopted into families might have a particular interest in having a baby because this would be a person who was biologically related to them. Actually, thinking about it I know Sander's older daughter has a younger sister so there is someone in the family who is related to her biologically. I think, so this may not apply.

Maybe the desire to have a baby quite young is actually quite common in girls. I desperately wanted a baby at 17, and I am not adopted.

Not sure I've heard of many young men wanting to be dads early.

I'm certainly not thinking biology is important myself. My son is adopted and he is 7, my daughter is my birth dd.

My son has said a few times lately that I am 'his legal mum' but not his 'biological mum'. I have said a lot it doesn't matter to me. But I wonder sometimes to people/children who have been adopted if having a child has an additional 'significance'. I am just wondering if this might increase the likelihood of wanting a baby.

I guess I am wondering if any of this is impacting Sander's dd because if it is there it might be some insight from adopters of older children. We used to have a few on these threads, like dear Lilka but they are not around at the moment.

However, if this is just regular things girls do/want then there might be more help/advice in general.

I don't think all non-adopters would say just push her out and let her stand on her own two feet. But I think adopters might be even more likely to encourage their kids to stay home longer.

I think as an adopter we always wonder is this issue or that issue is because of adoption, or is this just normal behaviour for our children.

Anyway, hopefully I have not caused offence as I didn't mean to.

XXXX Sanders.

Thank you both, and absolutely no offence taken Italian

I suspect being adopted generally, and DD's specific circumstances may have led the desire for a baby, but we have something semi-permanent in place now to stop that, and the desire seems to have waned a bit too. (They do say that girls with low self esteem are more likely to get pregnant young on purpose.)

It has been helpful 'talking' to you both. I think we are going to have to grit our teeth until the apprenticeship is done (and maybe gee up the encouragement to get through it) and then see where we are. I also need a more proactive programme of activities for DD2 to give her things to look forward to.

@UnderTheNameOfSanders , fab, glad to hear.

(We must meet up one day!)

'I also need a more proactive programme of activities for DD2 to give her things to look forward to.' This sounds like a great idea and I will pray that maybe dd1 will see this happening and will actually want to join in.

OP I hope it all goes well.

@italiangreyhound, thank you for your reply. You haven't caused offence at all, I just wasn't sure what you meant. Sorry about the delay in reply.

I am wondering if girls who have been adopted into families might have a particular interest in having a baby because this would be a person who was biologically related to them

I think that the bio vs non bio factor is really complicated and one of the least well understood aspects of adoption, and it certainly had a huge impact on my life, but I don't think it is remotely a driver towards having dc before you are ready, nor influential over whether an adoptee will necessarily want bio children or adopted children. I think it is more complicated than that, and I think that the largest factor in relation to when and how adoptees or anyone else chooses to have children and how good the choice is is more likely to be to do with their maturity. Also, I am not sure sweeping generalisations are ever going to be helpful (but please don't take this as a huge criticism) - there really are as many adoptee "types" with all their individual thoughts and feelings as there are adoptees!! Everyone has come from a different background, with different experiences. As just one illustration of this, there are 4 or so adoptees who contribute here fairly often and we all see our adoptions completely differently from each other, our narratives are different, our attitude towards life and adoption are different.

@yaboola thanks.

So, just been into school to talk with pastoral care after some very out of character behaviour yesterday from DD2. Luckily school is very good pastorally and sees behaviour as a cry for help rather than 'bad'. They are going to try some things to help. They 'get' her. Though of course there is a limit to what can be done there.
So drained.

How are things OP? I hope things have calmed a little. I think you are doing a wonderful job with dd1. I think that letting her make her decisions is in keeping with her age. With regards to the boyfriend, I think it can be quite normal for girls to drop their friends for boys. I work with teens and it often happens. They become so wrapped up with them. Low self esteem seems to play a part for these girls too.

I actually think you should take your attention off dd1. She is working, getting on with you, on birth control. Leave her to it a bit, as much as you can. Dd2 seems to need your help now. It must be draining but you are doing a fabulous job. I hope you are ok

DD1 (adopted) decided age 15 that a baby would fix all of life's problems - it was completely about a baby being 'hers' and what it would do for her, not realising that looking after a baby means taking second place yourself... so I can see the attraction for girls struggling with feeling worthwhile, especially when there is a lot of support for pregnant teens and they are the star of the show until the baby turns up.

Anyway, I agree with the others. Lots of attention and fun stuff for DD2, invite DD1 to join you but accept she probably won't.

If it's any consolation, DD1 is now 19 and reconnecting with us, split up with baby's father of course (the 'love of her life') and baby is being brought up by the father's family. So to a certain extent replicating the cycle, but at least has a settled and secure life with the father's family instead of DD's chaotic early life.

Well, we've finally broken up schools here, so DD2 should start chilling out. Great EOY report from an effort point of view.

I fear we may be building to more issues with DD1 though.
She had a meeting with her apprenticeship trainer the other day and had some work knocked back. Her reaction was that 'she has so much else on her mind'. She did say though she wants to discuss it with us.
However DH and I feel that dashing off to BF first thing every w/e, writing down bare minimum, not using google to help her with ideas but expecting to just be able to know it all, etc are probably hindering her bid to be successful...
I expect reality is somewhere in between.