Crazy Lady at the passport office-it was me!

[blossom101001]

I haven't been on for a while. We have been bobbing along quite well.

But today it all came to a head. My husband and I are Australian and have Indefinite Leave to Remain. Well we were told if we had ILR when we adopted the boys they could get their passports. I rang three times to confirm this.

Go into London to get passports and there told can't get passports because we did not have ILR when the boys were born. I get a little upset not too much. I ask how can we get their passports. Manager comes over to explain as the clerk was not making much sense.

Manager says that I must get the real parents birth certificate. I say I am the real parent and then I am corrected and told no you are not you are the legal parent not the real one. The real parent is the one who gave birth to them.

That is when I got upset! Cried all the way out of the office

Omg blossom that is absolutely disgusting! I'm not surprised it upset you, I think I would have been absolutely fuming though at that point and the tears would have come later. I think I would have had some sort of outburst along the lines of "so the REAL parent is the one that abuses them, or neglects them, or endangers them rather than the one who loves them unconditionally, fights for the best for them constantly, always puts them before themselves? Or do you mean you require the birth certificate of the BIRTH parent?" Done in as public a way as possible so as to cause maximum embarrassment of said imbecile!

Jeeeeez. So sorry you had to go through that. I'm seething on your behalf. Ignorant Muppets.

Thanks guys! I felt a bit silly but it really got to me. Especially after I stayed up with one of my not real children last night because they were having nightmares.

That is awful. Hope you have the energy to report. Shocking. Ignoramuses.

Surely it is the adoption order you need to get passports and if you have that after you got ILR then that should suffice. I also think the Home Office would have had to have been involved if the children were going to switch citizenship after adoption. Ours did.

I have the long adoption cert.

Hels what happened with switching citizenship?

Well our DS was born in UK, taken into care here but had a different nationality (E European). Both DH and I have British nationality. When we adopted DS, home office had to be notified that DS was ceasing to be E European and would become British on adoption. This was a bit of a palaver as Social Services forgot to send in forms (or they were lost by H O). Have you spoken to Social Worker? I do remember the passport forms we had to fill in though - and because my DH used to have a different nationality - things were a bit more difficult as we had to go into more detail.

The confusion and bureaucracy would have made me irate and upset in equal measure, but please try to remember that although the use of the term "birth" not "real" is very important to you, the vast majority of people will not have heard about "positive adoption language", and so it is not a sign of ignorance or rudeness to use "real". Someone I am close to was adopted and refers to their birth parents as their real parents and always has done, and so do their adoptive parents, probably because the adoption was early 70s before PAL or RAL (I think). Moreover, there are some adoptees and "birth" mothers who object very strongly to the term, and so it is unfair to them to push it too much. Has anyone else ever said that on here? I am fairly new to this section. However, I am sorry you are upset and the bureaucracy sounds awful - I have been through similar things from time to time and "keep calm and carry on" always helped me! I hope I haven't caused offence.

All of my DS's parents, both birth and adoption are "real" combined02.

His birth mother spent minutes with him and I still consider her to be real. I find it offensive that someone considers me not to be real despite having parented him for almost 9 of his 10 years but generally I do respond with a "I think the term you're looking for is "birth" mother rather than "real" mother" but sometimes it just isn't possible to be that clinical.

"Adoptive" and "birth" are fairly common descriptors when a distinction has to be made and I'm certainly not going to shy away from that because of nebulous people who might object to the term "birth" mother. If I meet one who objects then of course I'd use terminology they were happy with. Would be nice if someone like this official gave us the same courtesy.

And yes we've had conversations about adoption language over the years on here but probably not recently.

It wasn't the term that was used- it was the way she said it. It was cold and hurtful. I walked away feeling as though I was the adoptive parent. I kept getting told no you are only the legal parent not the real one.

I know how busy you'll be but if you could find the time to formally complain I would. People may attend with their children and could you imagine if they heard their parents being told they aren't their real parents (due to sheer ignorance). The damage that could do....

The birth parent is a parent, the adoptive parent is a parent, all REAL parents. Those terms describe only the nature of how they became a real parent and I've never met a person (birth parent or adoptive parent) whose offended by those terms. I do know that I would be offended if I was told I'm not a real parent, because I am one and while I've never asked this question to a birth parent, I'm sure they would be offended if they were described as not a real parent due to no legal rights or time looked after came into it and rightly so, they too are real parents.

Personally, I don't think it's rocket science, people often make mistakes, fair enough, but once you correct the terminiology they then use the correct terminology, not insist onwards with being ignorant to it. However, clearly there are some idiots in the world who need it spelling out and a formal complaint requesting what training will be done to correct the issue and prevent others being treated in a similar manner, may bring cause for a lesson to be undertaken. So sorry you had to experience that

And combined02 you say..

Moreover, there are some adoptees and "birth" mothers who object very strongly to the term, and so it is unfair to them to push it too much.

Im presuming you mean the term 'birth mother', if so, while I haven't found it to be true myself, in fact with adoptees I've found quite the opposite, if I did find it to be the case I would immediately change my choice of language with that person. But the same respect should be shown to adoptive parents. We don't like the term real parents only being applicable to birth parents as in this case, so it is unfair to push that too much too. I have contact with the birth parents of my children and we both are as respectful to each other with the language we use in our communication because we respect that both of our feelings are equally important.

And I agree it is not really ignorance to use an incorrect term as most people aren't familiar with positive adoptive language so I don't hold it against people when they don't, but it is ignorance to use the incorrect term and continue to use it despite having it explained to you and seeing a person is visibly upset, or maybe that isn't ignorant, just plain dumb. Either way...

Here in Ireland in law the birth family/mother/father/child is referred to as the 'natural' family/mother/father/child.
I dislike this term emormously.

I am really really sorry that you were exposed to that, in a climate where the civil service drums into staff the need for equality and respecting people that smacks in the face of diversity and acceptance, and just comes across as offensive, whether the language was intended or not, whilst it may have been language to me from you are saying it sounds like that person carries their own baggage around the issues of adoption and they sought to be offensive.
The passport office has a section for adoptees, they do the passports for them, it may help if you can be given their contact details, when you or your DP phone up to complain about that person's obnoxious behaviour.

Natural stems from birth, nature etc, it kind of reminds me of wild habitats, I don't like it in reference to birth parents, but I would find real over natural to be more offensive.

So update-

We went back to the passport office again-this time we had: passport application, original birth certs, adoption certs, court papers, birth parents birth certs, our ILR card and passports.

Well we were rejected again. This time because we didn't have grandparents certificates.

Oh blossom that is unbelievable! Grandparents certificates? Are they really serious! Is that even allowed?

Birth Mum and Dad were born after 1982 so we have to get grandparents certificates. We are getting quite good at genealogy stuff.

Good grief that really is ridiculous. I hope they were professional this time at least.

My husband did it this time. They weren't much better. He brought up our last visit and it was justified rather than apologised for.

It sounds like you are coping really well with the bureaucracy. How did they justify it, just out of interest?

Justification- it is the law. We must have these things.

Round three tomorrow- wish us luck!

Good luck, I am sure it will go well.

About the justification I thought you meant they justified the language which had upset you, my mistake!

We got them-We got them...After a visit where I was told I really wasn't their mother and a few other nasty things...We went back with mum's birth certificate and paperwork from the court only to be told we needed their grandmother's birth certificate...Go back again only to be met by another extremely rude person who didn't want to deal with me because my complaint got her friend in trouble...I was passed onto a lovely manager who put through the paperwork and well on Friday we got their passports!

Thank you for everyone's support

Never go to London's passport office on a Saturday-they are mostly clueless.

That's shocking! I'm a civil servant and you should complain. As for the idiot that was annoyed her friend was in trouble, well if her friend hadn't done anything wrong, then she wouldn't have been in trouble. Glad you did get someone to sort it for you.