Advice please re AD aggression.

[Copper13]

Evening all, I wonder if anyone has any words of wisdom/advice on how to handle this problem?
AD is now almost 3 years old, placed 18 months ago from foster home. Foster home since removal at 5 months.
AD is delightful, bright as a button, articulate and gorgeous. Could also be described as 'spirited' . Others might say hyperactive but we say it's too early to tell.
Some of the things she does which we are finding hard to deal with, me so more than H as I am with her full time is the physical lashing out when she's cross/frustrated/tired or for no obvious bloomin reason at all as happened 10 minutes ago and I'll explain in a moment.
When she's being told to do something and she refuses or to stop something and she refuses we try persuasion, distraction, bribery etc but sometimes nothing works and we have to physically remove her from the situation. 9/10 this results in her lashing out with her hands and slapping really hard (she's really strong) usually around my/H's head/face. She will also snatch H's glasses from his face and try to pull them apart or throw them on the floor. She has discovered that finger nails scratch and she's drawn blood on H's lip recently where she has grabbed and scratched. Also, she pretended to lick my forearm the other day and then turned it into a painful bite leaving teeth marks...
We know she's too young to answer "why did you do that?" we do try to get her to say sorry, even if she doesn't fully understand what it means and we've tried to explain to her that if she's feeling cross inside she can tell us rather than hit out. Again, I think she's too young to be able to stop the impulse to lash out.
She's under the weather tonight and ended up vomitting a few minutes after going to bed so after stripping the bed and cleaning her up I've popped her back in bed and asked her if she wanted her bedtime song sung. She said yes so I started singing. She stood up, shouted NOOOO in my face and slapped my face.
This aggression has been going on for about a year at a guess. How do you handle it if you've been on the receiving end?
Thank you for reading my waffle ??

This post is so spookily similar to our current experience that I could have written it. Will be interested to read other responses as we are still very much in the midst of this too.

It's so hard to know what's just standard toddler behaviour and when it becomes more than that.

We use a thinking spot approach, for anything else DD gets a warning and then two minutes on the thinking spot, but for hitting or kicking, it's straight there, then a sorry afterwards.

We can go a whole day with 'gentle hands' but then on days like today, there can be a half dozen episodes.

We are hoping that if we just keep on being consistent with boundaries and modelling positive behaviour then we'll eventually come out the other side, but it's a worry.

Sending solidarity anyway.

Hi girls, thank you, it's difficult isn't it? Like you say, trying to spot the difference between age appropriate behaviour and possible adoption related problems is very tricky.
At the moment all we do is say a firm "no" and things like "that's not kind, mummy and daddy never use our hands to hurt, only gentle" etc.
She's not reward orientated at all so suggesting that to her doesn't work. If we're in the middle of playing and she does it I'll stop what we're doing for a few minutes and she'll more often than not say sorry and give me a hug. But that only works in that situation.
Like you say, any suggestions much appreciated.

Sensory Processing?

What leapt out at me is that when you physically try to remove her that is when she lashes out. Also her reaction to you singing when she wasn't in the mood.

Just an idea. As I had no idea that such a thing existed when I had toddlers. My children are not adopted but I have three with what might be termed sensory processing issues. Naughty step will not really help much.

Out of Sync child is a good book. Which mentions things like "heavy work" playdough rolling up in blankets pushing miniature wheelbarrows as a way of dealing with the need for self regulation. Read it.

Imagine if you are sick and someone bombards you with a noise that is too loud - that is how your LO may have felt when you sang the song. I don't think it is aggression per se. It is a defensive reaction.

We don't yet have an AC (currently waiting for a match) but we have a nearly 4 yr old BC and we have been trying to follow attachment based discipline methods with him so that we can be consistent with both children whenever we are eventually matched! Previously we did time out (which did in fact work very well although was often quite traumatic for everyone) but we now do time in. There's no specific area like a thinking spot or anything- we just cuddle him wherever we are until he calms down, and talk a lot to him about how we understand that he is cross etc. but he still mustn't do x or y. Once fully calmed down we ask for an apology. There is no punishment for the behaviour as such - no sitting there for a set time, or losing toys. I was initially dubious that this method would create an incentive for him to behave but it's really good. He still gets v cross so the calming down bit can take time but when he gives in and lets himself be hugged properly it's so nice for both of us. He's also confided a lot more about why he is cross - I appreciate until your AC is older you won't get this benefit- but it seems to help promote conversation and understanding in a way that time out didn't.
Forgive me if I'm teaching you to suck eggs, but we have found it works well for us. It also helps me stay a lot calmer when he is acting up, which is no bad thing!

I have a bio DD who is 3 just over 3 and an adopted DD who is 20 months. It is hard and it is unpleasent and I feel for you, I have been through it with both of mine and I expect DD2 will have another phase of it. It hurts physically and mentally.

I agree with Enigma, and we have our own variation. We read a book called When I feel Angry and we read this every night for about a month, so that we could talk about what the emotion felt like and give it a name. It suggests a solution to your anger, breathing, being alone, hitting a cushion. DD1 chose what works best for her and she now does that. When I see her getting angry I comment that she looks angry and ask if she wants to do some breathing or time by herself. It works a lot of the time. I found the trick is to try to preempt the anger - look for signs she is about to lose it and mention it to her.

I would also second getting an immediate apology and discussing it afterwards - including a chat about how they could handle things differently. Remember the chat afterwards doesn't have to be immediate you can discuss it at bedtime if you are both still too wound up. DD1 takes a long time regain all her patience so we always save the discussion until bedtime or the following morning.

Even when they are older there is very little point in asking them why they did something - they just don't knowand they are likely to give you a made up answer or just be silent. Asking what happened to make them angry gets slightly better results but is still often met by silence.

Sorry if you know all this. And sorry that you are going through this.

Thanks for the various suggestions all, some to consider I think. Unfortunately she just won't allow being cuddled when she's in the angry frame of mind, it escalates the problem rather than reducing it. I have been wondering about a quiet corner that she can claim as her own for when things get bad, a comfy space that she can regain control with me perhaps talking quietly nearby?

Hi, I feel your pain. My AD is 9 but her ages and time in fc were very similar to yours, and she was dreadfully aggressive. We went through hitting, throwing, spitting, kicking, scratching and most gloriously, head butting. Never biting fortunately! I would love to give you pearls of wisdom but can't; I genuinely believe we didn't handle it very well at all. I was the main target and I tried everything (I felt), and nothing worked. Well, perhaps occasionally something did but it was always more on her terms, so if she was happy with whatever I did rather than being happy because I did it iyswim. With hindsight, I needed far more patience. I believe she was, and still is, testing my commitment to her. As she's grown older the immediate jump to anger is more controlled but we spend a LOT of time talking about how she must be able to handle her own feelings and it isn't and never will be ok to react to a situation with aggression. School has been a trial, although her current school are very positive with her. She has only shown her aggressive heights to maybe 2 people other than DH and me, which I feel is a win, but may be deluding myself! With hindsight, I think she always needed, and still needs to feel in control, and in charge. Time out never worked, removing toys etc never worked, removing activities never worked, cuddling never worked (head butts particularly prevalent here!). Rewards quickly got out of hand with her expecting praise and some sort of reward for not simply being foul. What did seem to be effective for moving on was leaving her alone to calm down, so if you can create a soft space, expressly for that, I think you may be onto a winner. As already suggested, follow that up with a conversation about how she was feeling and what made her feel that way - I always find the best time to do this is on a walk or car journey, no escape, no distractions, little eye contact. The only other thing that worked for us was maturity. When she flies off the handle now, I have no idea how I used to live with her doing it 5 or 6 times a day, every day but I did. From about 4 on it got significantly easier and she is the most amazing, intelligent, thoughtful little girl. Prone to hyperactivity (not a diagnosis, just a general observation) and can talk the hind leg off a donkey. She still has demons but she can't identify them and until she can we just have to be there, even when she's launching things at us! Whether her behaviour is "normal" or adoption related I dont know, but strongly suspect the latter. Wish I could have been more help, but keep the faith, it will get better.

Bollox , thank you for such a lovely response, it's so useful to hear your experience. AD is also quite controlling, there's a lot of similarities. I definitely need to have more patience, 80% of the time I react in a calm way but 20% of the time I snap verbally and don't take time to count to 10. Difficult when you've got 5 sharp finger nails pulling at your skin though
I'll speak to H about creating a quiet spot for her and try to talk to her after the incidents occur when things have calmed down.
I'm really pleased your daughter has come through it mostly. You sound like you've got a brilliant relationship.

I feel your pain. My two delightful LOs have thrown things at me, spat at me and hit me today . Good to see some light at the ed of the tunnel Bollox! I also don't feel I'm patient enough, but I do try.

Enigma How do you manage the cuddling thing? It's the approach we thought we'd take, but trying to do that with DD would result in having to pin her down, which would not only be counterproductive, but also physically dominating her isn't something we feel that comfortable with. Besides, despite her age, she's really strong and I think we'd struggle.

Cuddling works once she's a bit calmer, but when she's kicking off she completely loses it.

Do you do some form of safe holding?

Copper what I find hardest is the hitting when she's not in a total rage. When she's raging I feel so bad for her, but it's more difficult when she's calmed down, is sitting calmly, but then will get up to walk over and try to hit me. I sometimes think the raging and the calmer hitting are two separate issues.

DD very very rarely tantrums in front of anyone but my wife and I. I hold on to the hope that maybe all small children are roughly the same behind closed doors, but it's impossible to know.

No time to post much now, but just wanted to commiserate and say that we, too, have this problem with our AD (now 5).

Both my adopted dc, older than yours (11 and 7,) are extremely aggressive and I am sorry to say, the aggression and violence is becoming worse year on year to the extent that things might break down for everybody's safety.

I would say get as much family therapy, training/support, assessment/ diagnoses as you can when he is small.

Summertime, I'm really sorry to hear that, it must be so difficult and upsetting. How old were your children when placed if you don't mind me asking?
Piffy and Devora sorry you and your kids are going through it as well :-(
Girls, I understand what you mean re the raging/calm hitting. Our LO does similar. H's cut lip was not done in a rage, she was in bed with us because she'd asked after waking. After several false starts with settling back to sleep with us she decided to "cuddle" daddy by climbing on his head. She was giggling all through this but suddenly stopped and went to hit his face but caught his lip with her nail drawing blood (lots of it) To be fair it shocked her but it's the unexpected lashing out which is most difficult to deal with.

Both my dc were 2 when placed. Neither showed any warning signs that they would have additional needs but they now have multiple diagnoses.

Both are on medication to control the behaviour and aggression but I am not sure how much difference it makes.

When they were little though they never hit me in the way you describe. It was more when playing alongside their peers.

Camhs say there is nothing else they can do and that therapy wouldn't work, it is just about managing the behaviour.

DD does this occasionally - her outbursts are mainly verbal but can turn physical

We think the reasons for them range from a need for control, to attention seeking, to an outlet for difficult feelings she can't process, to testing us to check if we are really sticking around

But still working on how to handle it when it happens...

Copper I am so sorry you are going through this. Can you get post adoption support where you are?

My birth dd is 10 now and went through a small amount of what you describe. My adopted ds is now 4 (came to us at 3) and does some of the things but no where near as much.

We now do take a break, which I can join him in if necessary. This is cushions in a safe space or the bottom of the stairs if he is safe to sit there (e.g. not go up them and jump down etc). It is no toy zone for about 2 minutes and a time to calm down. We do not demand an apology generally but i would for hurting another. It is not a punishment but a time to cool down. For us it does work sometimes. Not always. Both my kids need a cuddle when upset but the timing is crucial! Ds needs it quite soon after but dd needs time (usually in her bedroom) to calm down before the cuddle.

Although time out/take a break or whatever is not specifically a punishment if our children do not go on the spot they get a punishment like loss of a toy for a few minutes. Although these punishments and sanctions will not 'cure' the bad behaviour I do feel it is useful to get children used to them because when they are at school behaviour like this will not be tolerated by teachers so the kids need to know it is anti-social. My son went through a bit of a biting time, always at his sister, never at school. This behaviour may not manifest at school or pre school, it could be just in the family home, like mine is. I am usually the target of both kids if they feel angry, not at the same time, my husband does not get hit etc ever. For this reason I feel my kids can control it a bit and are choosing me because either know I will always love them (their dad would too but maybe women seem to be more the target for kids aggression).

I am going to look into this book someone mentioned, 'Out of Sync child' as I think my dd has some sensory processing issues. I feel my dd may have attention deficit disorder or possibly ASD. But her behaviour manifested at 5 when she went into Year 1 at school, so may be different to your child's. Also my dd is not adopted.

I do feel some things they do grow out of and work through, being able to talk more and say how they feel, what they need etc might help your child.

The behaviour might be testing you, as others have suggested.

Please do keep yourself safe. I know it is hard. I have had some degree of it with dd and have ended up being strict on this one area, I make sure she knows I love her unconditionally but I won't be attacked and I have to be very careful how I protect myself as sometimes protective moves can look aggressive to child (e.g. raising your arm to protect your face) but as a mum you must be protected, IMHO.

I think you need more advice and help, I hope you can get it in your area, our area post adoption team has been brilliant. Please do not wait for it to pass, just see what is available.

Italian, thank you for your reply, it's also been very helpful. I do feel she is testing us to a point and I'm hoping that continual reassurance will help.
We have been seeing (DH and I) the post adoption support psychiatrist who has been useful in suggesting ways of talking to her to try to recognise her feelings a bit more but I need to try to do this in calmer moments, not stressful ones.
I will try to get hold of some of the 'emotions' books aimed at younger children so that we can help explain better.
I do feel safe btw. At the moment she is young enough to be able to hold her hands down but I do want to try and stop the behaviour before she gets older and stronger.
Thanks again everyone.