Court date questions /celebration hearing

[iwishkidslikedtomatoes]

Hi lovely people

We just got the paperwork today from the court with dates. I have questions which my SW will probably be able to answer but i'm an impatient soul and thought they'll be many on here who have had an AO granted who may be able to answer my questions. Therefore, if anyone can please help, I'd be very grateful.

The letter refers to an initial hearing, then the one to grant the final order.

I know BM intends to contest, while nothing has changed she wants to be able to say she did all she could to the last possible moment, which I respect (and am upset she's probably received paperwork this close to mothers day tbh ) . But my question is, if she applies to do this and the court doesn't grant her permission to appeal, as is expected by SS, does that mean the dates in the letter still remain the same and they would only change if a proper appeal had to be heard? I get so confused with this stuff. Also it says we don't have to attend, but do adopters attend or not?

If all is well with both we then obviously get the celebration hearing. How long after the hearing to grant the final AO does this tend to happen?

Thank you all in advance for any help you can give

The two court dates is different to how they do it in our local court but it will say don't attend as that is when birth parents will go

They usually wait 28 days after the order is made for the celebration hearing.

Thank you floatyjo - much appreciated! :)

Can I ask why the child has been removed from the Biological mother ? I have heard/ read so much bad stuff about children being removed by social services from ridiculous and absurd reasons. The ones making these fatal decisions are still only people who make mistakes and they would even go extra few miles to make someone look guilty rather than admitting their own mistake. So heartbreaking for me to hear that biological mother is trying to get her child back until the last moment. Apart from few extreme cases I cannot imagine a strong enough reason to take the child away from their real mother and give it to someone else ( unless she does not really care which does not seem to be the case), sorry

I don't really want to go into the reasons as that is our child's story and obviously their birth parents and even in an anonymous way as this, if they were to read this now or at a later date they may be upset by such an intrusion of privacy. I'm not trying to hide anything by that, it's just the personal details of the matter if you get what I mean. I get the idea that private family courts etc. don't really allow an indepth public insight to specific cases but this is to protect the privacy of such children and also the birth parents whom both should be protected.

I would say that I wouldn't believe everything you read, or rather don't read one thing and presume every case is the same. Don't get me wrong, there are occasional mistakes made and these are the ones that obviously make the press. You also may get one side of a story where SS are then not able to comment on an individual case to get the other side across.

Some reasons for children being removed:
Parents are sadly affected by drugs or alcohol to a level where they can't parent and despite the children spending time in foster care while their parents try to sort themselves out, they can't.

Being sexually abused by their parents or knowingly leaving their children with registered sex offenders

Being physically abused by their parents

Being in a household where domestic violence is occurring but where the parents refuse to split to keep the children safe

Neglect - from not feeding children, not cleaning them, giving no attention, no attendance at school, things like that. In some cases in the end the children literally don't cry because they've learned no-one will come - that harsh line in the NSPCC advert is not just for 1 or 2 cases a year.

If any children were left with the parents above I think you'd be reading in the papers about how SS are wrong to NOT remove children from their parents (SW'S literally can't win) And if you've read that list you may be thinking, well that can't cover that many children, that's just the extreme cases, unfortunately the sad fact is that is not the case, they cover the majority :( It's also worth remembering SW's don't decide who gets adopted, a judge makes that decision. And there are 3 court orders made before a child is adopted and the birth parents can appeal each one in court.

Also a point worth noting is that ive been told birth parents contesting adoptions until the very last court date is not unusual, even if they've already accepted that they are not able to parent their children. And as an adopter I respect this! They want to be able to tell their children in later life that even though they knew what was right they never gave up the fight and this will only help the children in later life come to terms with how they've come to have 2 families.

I don't think I could quite believe how a person could have their child removed from their care but once you've been part of the adoption process unfortunately ('unfortunetly' because i wish no-one ever had reason to) you do fully understand. And what i also now understand is that we should not judge birth parents either because as with everything in life their are reasons and circumstances behind everything each of us do.

Also worth thinking about.....5,050 children were adopted from care during the year ending 31st March 2014. If you hear 10 horror stories in places such as the daily mail that year, that's not even 1/4 % of adoptions. If 5050 children were being removed for nonsense reasons I think the election this year would be filled with 'we will stop adoption' as part of their agenda don't you think

Extremely well put iwishkidslikedtomatoes!

Absolutely right - contesting is not that unusual, and I think to some extent may help birth families feel they "did everything they could". The tragedy is that they probably had years and years of not being able to do "everything they could" to protect/parent those children before this point. I cannot imagine how tough that is to live with.

Although appeals or decisions to appeal are not rare, it is unusual that they are followed through (birth family may not come to court) or that they demonstrate any change in circumstance.

There could be one date to hear the request for permission to appeal. If denied, I think there is a 21 day period in which birth families can appeal that decision. Then there might be a further date to hear the case for granting the adoption order. (This could be done on the first date, if the appeal ends up not happening.) Adoptive parents don't go to the court until the celebration hearing, which tends to be some weeks after the AO hearing. Confused? Me too!!.

Dear Iwishkidsliketomatoes. Thank you for your answer however it does not keep me calm at all. I am definately not one of those who believe everything until I hear both parts to make my own opinion. As well as I am not a part of sheep herd to believe that everything the authorites do and tell you is the truth and best for you. It is highly understandable for you to endlessly believe the SS if they are the ones doing you the favour of offering you a child. Of course I don't know your case, just generalising.
I am experiencing so much unprofessionalism and lack of qualification all across the UK that is shocking for me to see that these people (SS) can intervene someone's life in such a fatal way. I have witnessed a case when two children were removed from a perfectly sound family. Parents were fighting till the end and adoption was already arranged. Parents had nothing to lose by making this case public after 2 year legal battle (they were foreigners living in the UK) and at he end even got the government of their own country to intervene the case. Their files were consistently filled with bunch of lies, made up accusations, wrong assumptions etc. The judge spent probably about 15 minutes looking basically only into the file from SS. On this he based his decision ( as they statistically do in 80% of cases). Not taking into account any other proves of medical staff or police etc which were all on parents side. And this is one of hundreds and hundreds similar absurd cases. You will not hear much about them because as you mentioned yourself - part of the child protection law is to keep everything secret. Parents are not allowed to talk about it anywhere because they immediately lose their chance to see their child at all or are even put in prison for breaking this law. This whole silence and secrecy basically legalises any potential dodginess going on there.
The problem is that this whole system and childprotection law adopted by UK is so incredibly faulty that allows these cases to happen and develop with no chance of reverse for the parents. With absolutely no higher institiuon to control acting of social services or family courts. It is a state inside of a state. I am not saying they don' t do good in some extreme cases. But there is no more the willingness to help families in need because it costs a lot of money and some effort. It is easier to offer the child for an adoption as the whole process generates more money on many levels. However I still believed that these cases only happen randomly until I had myself a health visitor coming to our home last week. (We are expecting our first baby in a month). And was left in a shock from how many prejudices that woman had before she even entered our flat. She was very manipulative and did not seem to listen to my answers until she heard something that could be interpreted as something " alarming" from her point of view. I am not going to go into more details as this would belong to a different topic thread. Now I am filled with so much anxiety and seriously thinking of leaving UK to give a birth at my home country as I do not feel safe here at all. Seing a " professional " doing here job and being in a direct touch with SS - I can easily imagine a scenario when they make some some reason to take my child away at birth from absolutely made up reasons and I wont be able to fight fast enough as the whole legal process takes ages. ( me and my partner are foreigners working here on qualified positions, have university degrees - and paying taxes of course).
I apologise that my message does not really answer your original questions. I am just trying to see how it works on the other side. I got quite upset when you mentioned that the BM is probably trying to appeal because it is close the Mothers day. Seriously ??? I bet you do not know the mother or ever met her as this is not compliant with the adoption process. And you still are able to say this quite sick accusation about someone you have not even met? It does leave me in big doubts that you can imagine how rotten this system can be. But good luck to you. I hope your conscience is immaculate and believe that you may have rescued a child.
For everyone\ s information I attached some related links - I guess BBC is not Daily Mail, and secondly John Hemming MP is also probably not dealing with these matters for an increased sales profit etc.
I recommend to watch the video link at the end of the article

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25641247

www.justice-for-families.org.uk/

I think op meant that she was sorry birth mum received the papers so close to mothers day, not that this was the reason she wanted to appeal. She was thinking of the birth mother's feelings.

iwish

You are more patient than me...

In answer to your questions (this is in our experience... We are going through the same thing currently)

If, at the first hearing, the BM applies for leave to contest the AO, the courts will put together a timetable of events. Events will include a date by which the BM Has to submit a statement, a date by which the placing LA has to respond, a date by which a court appointed guardian has to review the statements and submit their own recommending a course of action, and the date of the next hearing where all the evidence will be heard and the judge will make a decision as to whether to grant leave to contest or not.

The (in our case) decision will NOT be made at the initial hearing. In fact depending on how busy the court is, the time between the initial (first directions) hearing and the hearing where the decision will be made could be several months to allow for all the statements to be prepared.

If the answer is 'no', she gets 28 days to appeal. After this 28 days has passed (and if she doesn't appeal), a final hearing is then booked where the AO is granted.

The celebration hearing is then after that.

We didn't go to any hearing due to the BM previously trying to trace the children. Some adopters are requested to attend the initial hearing, I believe. If you have been told you don't have o attend, you don't have to attend.

Hope that helps.

Our final hearing was Friday last week. Our celebration hearing was yesterday.

I am continually amazed that anyone could think it was remotely acceptable to ask somebody why their child was taken into care! Isn't it the most blatantly obvious thing in the world that the childs life story is intensely sensitive and personal and hence very private. Why would you think you could possibly have ANY right to know something so private about a strangers child? Isn't is OBVIOUS?!

to Lilka - because this is an ANONYMOUS chat? , and If the adoptive parent is already going this far on line to talk about the trial and adoption process with complete strangers why not to ask other details? I don't understand this lame law where for example when there is a baby removed from her mother only because she suffered from depression in the past and one very "qualified and professional healthvisitor" who is not even a psychologist reports her to SS for a "potential for future harm" to the baby. So when mother wants to talk about this particular reason and fight for the baby back what sensitive facts does this reveal about the actual baby? Mother has done nothing. Neither the baby. And everyone around will know that the child has been adopted anyway.. But she could go into prison for talking about that and asking for justice elsewhere??? Do you see the logic? This is how this great law is written. Only proves that you can hide or legalize any kind of dodgy acting from authorities behind this forced silence. Human rights have been completely ignored in this case. By the way not in every EU country forced adoption is legal (the consent of the biological parents is always needed) probably for a reason

I suffered (diagnosed) depression in the past. They let me adopt (twice).

Why would they take children away from birth parents who've suffered depression to give them to someone who has suffered depression?

Could it be that there are factors other than depression at play?

Chiquita82 - the argument will never be 'balanced' because SS cannot give the facts or their side of the story. You only get to hear the birth parents side and quite often this is heavily skewed.
My children were removed due to neglect and violence between the parents. The Birth parents did not feel that anything was wrong with their lifestyle.
And therein lies the problem. A complete variation of thought on what is considered acceptable parenting.

I know a teenager in another country where adoption law is different. He has spent nearly his whole life with foster parents. Every six months his birth parents have the right to go to court to ask for him to return. Every six months he does not know where he will be living next. Every six months he is anxious and scared. Every six months his birth parents do not get him back as they cannot make the changes necessary. Until recently he could not travel with friends' parents in their cars. He cannot attend sleepovers. His foster parents cannot relocate for work or they will lose him. His whole childhood is spent in a state of transition, uncertainty, anxiety and stress. But it's ok because his birth parents haven't lost their rights and that's what is important, right?

I am still stuck on chiquita's utterly ignorant statement of social services "doing us a favour by offering us a child". You clearly have strong opinions on adoption however as pointed out to you already you have no idea what the majority of children have had to endure prior to be taken into care and subsequently adopted.

As actual adopters we perhaps know a little more of the other side having gone through the training and assessment necessary in this country to adopt. I know without a shadow of a doubt that every effort was made to return my son to his natural mother and so much support was offered to her.

I wish you well with your pregnancy and sincerely hope you never find yourself in the position of considering adoption perhaps then though you would see the bigger picture.

Iwishkids.... All the very best with your adoption hearing. We have just had ours. I hope things go smoothly for you

I am utterly incensed at this woman's ignorance! Just a quick google search will give you at least 20 children that have died at the hands of their parent or carers abuse. Ands that's only the ones for whom it is too late sadly. I have tremendous empathy for my sons birth mother however she was given numerous opportunities to care for her children with extensive support from social services after they had been returned to her for a second chance and yet they still had be removed again because she was endangering their lives. I can't believe that educated people truly believe this country would spend the vast amounts of money they do on child protection, foster care and adoption services to "do someone a favour" of giving them a child! Seriously??? Deluded!

to Lilka - because this is an ANONYMOUS chat? , and If the adoptive parent is already going this far on line to talk about the trial and adoption process with complete strangers why not to ask other details?

You are really quite clueless. So I will spell out what should be obvious to you - the OP's adoption journey - eg. her assessment sessions, is HERS to tell to whomever she chooses. She did it, it's her business, she can decide what she wants to talk about. The childs journey on the other hand, with all the little details, is the CHILDS story. You know, because a child and a parent are different people, not the same person? You want to know why a person was taken into care, then ask that person directly. Or to put it another way, if you had been taken into care and your story was difficult and possibly distressing, would you be in any way comfortable with your family spilling it out to randomers? I think not. And if you can't understand that, something is lacking in the empathy department

So the only answer you're going to get from parents about our childrens circumstances is a vague statement eg. "my child was relinquished" or "my child was removed by social services because their birth family couldn't look after them". As it should be.

Also, "doing us a favour by offering us a child". Oh please. You REALLY want to know what we think? Ask us politely, don't assume random made up shit. Simple.

And the OP is a real mum. As are we all. We're mums, and we exist. Also simple.

Oh and if you want more insight into court decisions regarding childrens futures, I suggest that you read family court judgements, there's an extensive archive online at familylawweek and bailii. I read them sometimes, they are very sobering and hopefully will give a much greater understanding of some bits of the system

And iwishkids - best of luck

Sometimes things do change from original dates. However you don't attend the pre-order hearings, and you will be informed as soon as the final adoption order is granted, so the most that will happen is you may end up waiting a few weeks more than anticipated. In rare cases, it can be longer. Then you attend your celebration hearing, you'll get enough notice of that.