Lots of tears

[Italiangreyhound]

Hi guys, can I have some advice please?

My adopted son is 4 and my birth dd is 10.

Ds has been home for about 9 months now. He seems to have settled very well and attached very well, mostly. It is very hard to gauge these things and I am keen to help him all I can.

He seems settled with me, dh and dd and has got to know friends locally and developed into a calmer child. He is a wonderful little boy. Many friends comment on how more settled he seems etc.

He started part-time school a few days ago and seems to have settled very well. He enjoys stuff and is very confident. I have observed him (unseen) at the break time and he seems to fit in well with the other kids.

At home things are good, slightly mixed, generally pretty good and mostly he manages all kinds of things pretty well. He is affectionate, articulate etc. We make time to talk about the past, look at memory box if he wants to etc. I am not sure at 4 how much he truly understands it all but he seems to have an understanding of who he is and how he fits in at home.

To me the evidence for this is that he seems quite settled, mostly, and he expects things to go the way he wants, doesn't seem to have any nerves about my love, or his place in family generally, quite demanding generally, in a good way, not shy to ask for his needs to be met, not embarrassed at all really for things like asking for help, which makes me feel he is a very well adjusted 4 year old.

The only two areas at the moment that is not so great are:

That when things do not go ds's way he very quickly gets upset. It is quite superficial (although looks totally genuine). He quickly gets back to normal which is why I say I think it is superficial. An example is I came in with cold hands and jokingly said "Time to wash your hands for dinner, quickly or I will touch you with my cold hands!"

Both kids shouted for me to do it but I had only been joking so said no! Then ds dissolved into floods of tears and was only happy when I showed him how cold my hands were! Other times he would be likely to cry if I touched him with wet hands (he hates getting wet except for in the bath or swimming pool!).

He has done this all along but to some extent I expected it to get better the longer he was here. Other things have got better, e.g. his 'I can't do it' phrase, which he said a lot at the start, has disappeared and he is so much more confident now.

This crying is not getting better and seems to be getting worse, it is not all the time but today was a bad day for this, or rather later today when he might be tired.

So lots of tears and on the occasions when he doesn't get what he wants, but it does seem manipulate and yet utterly convincing. I am struggling to know whether to give in for his sake or mine or for harmony in the family or whether to not give in. This could be about almost anything, whether he gets chocolate when he wants it, whether he gets to choose the tv channel etc. I currently sometimes let him have his own way, when appropriate (e.g. choosing when he has his chocolate) but not allowing him to control things when at times it would add to general tension between him and dd.

Any advice, please?

Thanks so much if you got through all that!

The other thread I wrote on, about jealousy, is at

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/adoptions/2279054-Jealousy?msgid=51814176#51814176

Have read both threads with interest, may be wrong but this may to do with Separation and Loss problem's which is quite common, problems will
improve with time , know can be difficult but all have too work together make lite of situations deviate from tantrums , use sharing strategy , all is not for you , even if other's are not present , apply the same too other children, Ask what makes him cry and get upset, WOULD HAVE had personal things, ways of calming or not at previous placements ,may have developed attachment's. All will exhibit problems in different ways.
Shock and Denial (I don't believe it
Anger (How can they
Guilt (Why didn't I
Jealousy ( Why not her not me
Sadness/Loneliness
High Anxiety
Withdrawal
Clinging excessive crying
These are just a few.
Talk with play see if you can pick up on any memory's thing's, he may be missing, object's , places , people , way's of comfort , Will be Avery confused little chap if Separation and loss is the problem, can happen month's after placement, will improve in time.

Thanks so much fasparent can you explain more about ... but all have too work together make lite of situations deviate from tantrums , use sharing strategy , all is not for you , even if other's are not present , apply the same too other children..

I don't really understand what you mean by this, but I do want to understand.

Today has been good so far, no jealousy or tears (except when he bashed himself falling over! Which he does seem to do a lot, he is pretty accident prone!).

Lots of children moved too permanency will be feeling how long will this one be, other placements may have been good or bad. Attachment's can be a big issue, do not confuse placements as being JUST foster care, know of children who by the age of 5 have had as many as 50 placements resulting in sever attachment problems, mean's they were passed from pillar too post placed with relatives , friends, strangers , in foster care. would have experience Separation and Loss many times over. There will be many triggers too invoke good and bad memory's.
Some of our children will mention things years later as their confidence and security strengthens.

Thanks fasparent, we will never know for sure but we think things were reasonably stable for ds up to a point, and only one foster placement but I do take on board what you say about pre foster care.

I of course don't know your DS, but with my slightly younger (adopted) DD, tears can seem often near the surface and flow quite easily too. Although they come quickly and they go quickly, I don't always read them as being superficial.

To me, it seems like DD has a this layer on her surface which is her "coping layer", where she's able to engage, laugh, play and interact in fairly standard toddler ways. Some days, if she's slept OK, and doesn't hit any triggers through the day, that surface layer is fairly robust and it feels like she can relax a bit. However, on other days, and I don't always know why, she is clearly hanging on by her fingernails to keep the surface layer together and to cope with her day. It will then only take apparently "tiny" things for the tears or worry to break through, and she will seem devastated. And the truth is, she IS devastated - not by the spilt water or whatever it was, but because her panicky tight grip has slipped and it scares her.

It is getting easier, and she is learning to loosen her grip a little bit at a time, for short periods, but I still under-estimate just how much energy and effort go into her trying to look like she's managing. She too had just one foster placement, which was a positive placement, but was in BF for a considerable time first and it seems that more and more detail about negative experiences there is now coming out.

I am at an early stage of learning about Theraplay, but so far tiny attempts at applying it have been unexpectedly helpful with DD. We've been advised to focus specifically on the parts of theraplay that are concerned with nurture and structure (there are other elements better suited to different children). The activities seem so straightforward, but I can definitely see an impact in DD's willingness to trust and accept comfort, as well as accept boundaries. I'm hoping in time it will help decrease anxiety, and regulate the emotions/tears.

Great post pelican

I suspect that his coping mechanisms are being pushed to breaking point by adding in the pressure of school so early into placement

And I agree with FAS parent that he will still be grieving

Thank you PelicanBriefs that is a great post. When you say I of course don't know your DS, but with my slightly younger (adopted) DD, tears can seem often near the surface and flow quite easily too. Although they come quickly and they go quickly, I don't always read them as being superficial. That is very true I am using the word superficial because they seem surface but they could have very deep roots.

I think the thing is he seems so settled in other ways, and so well attached. It is so hard to know because in many ways he is making leaps and bounds. His placement in foster care is very good.

Kristina you know I agonised over when to start school and it was only on professional advice that this would be right for him that DH and I decided he would start part time.

He did very well at the preschool, seemed very settled doing three mornings a week so we are just increasing it to five mornings a week, it is the same period of time at the building (except two mornings more).

I am going to look into theraplay. I have a chat with the attachment worker for some time in the future. PelicanBriefs can you advise more about what you do and whether this is at home or with help from someone else?

Thanks so much.

Sorry a different building, I mean the same amount of time away from me per day, except more because five days not three days.

I had a small amount of training through play workshops run by the LA, and have asked if they will provide another session for us as it was really good. We had a chance to hear the theory, try out example "games" and (the hardest part) practice getting the language right during the games.

For example, one of the needs DD has is for structure, in the sense of trusting enough to relinquish trying to control everything. We need to make sure in our theraplay games that they are parent-directed, not child-directed, because this lets her see I am a "safe pair of hands" in the world of the game, and might just be trustable beyond that. So instead of saying "shall we do this / let's try that..." I have to take care to say "We are going to play x game, I am going to start, then you are going to do x..." And keep gently making sure we stay on track throughout (tough to do with a toddler keen on de-railing, but that's where the trainer was helpful with tips!)

I would not feel confident to do this without training, and would like more. So far it has been a lot more constructive than the regular sessions with the attachment psych but I am continuing those too, because I am frankly taking any support on offer.

Thanks Pelican that it how I feel - I am frankly taking any support on offer.

My county council adoption team have been really good and I have done tons of courses but I do like the idea of real 'training' not just talking. If you see what I mean.

I know school could be an issue but to be honest he has faired so well the last few days. He has done stuff at school he did not need to do, he has kind of thrived! I was so surprised because I was scared he would have problems and he just did amazingly. It is totally, totally early days but he seems to be adjusted. He had lunch there with me and also without me.

I guess I am sometimes blind-sided by him because he manages relatively well with so much and when he does get upset it is over the little stuff.

He is so alert and wise, it is confusing at time, I mean he is streets ahead of some other kids his age. Yet I know there is all the 'stuff' in the back ground.

I just wish I could know I was always doing the right thing, it is quite stressful, I never worried in advance as much with birth dd (aged 10) yet she has actually been so much harder to parent!

DD's specialty is appearing to cope with new things i.e. nursery, then having a delayed reaction - I don't know if this rings true for your DS? I am now braced 72 hours after something tricky (such as a hospital aptmt) because the fallout tends to be delayed. They think this is due to her not being used to having her needs met, so not expressing them at the time - but they come out later and can seem random until I count on my fingers back to something stressful. So for us, starting nursery was completely fine, but week 2-3 were horrendous. It did get better though!

Pelican, that absolutely sounds like our DS (placed over a year), his reactions to things are nearly always delayed. He too finds he hard to relinquish control in certain situations, meaning he cannot partake in larger group situations as there is no way he can feel remotely in control compared to a smaller group. Likewise like you Italian his tears come very easily, to the same extreem intensity no matter what situation has occurred. Aka the whole world ends. But like what your DS sounds he is very confident, so adaptable, loves playing with his friends, very affectionate & is really starting to take to his learning in school. So it is hard. But I've found his tears have eased over the time he's been here, they used to occur over many things several times a day, now probably a few times a week. Possibly more settled?

You sound very understanding and thoughtful to your little boy & his tears, I wish I had more patience at times!

How do you go about getting referred for theraplay? I really like the idea of having structured play with DS where I decide on roles etc, as at the moment he is very bossy when it comes to being in control of play etc!

Sorry to hijac just all sounds very similar here too

Hi Buster,
Start with your SW and ask if your LA offer the training. If they don't, please pester for an assessment of your DS's needs, and see if they will pay for theraplay from another provider. I believe Family Futures offers it, and I'm sure others do too - www.familyfutures.co.uk/child-therapy/theraplay/

Thank you :)

Thanks Buster, yes, my little one is very affectionate but no, sadly, I am not as patient as I should be. I find it very hard as both kids get quite emotional quite quickly.

Tonight we played the nurturing game, which ds loves.

The Nurturing Game

I did his bath and story and then we chatted, we talked about school, birth parents and other stuff. He seemed very calm and settled. He speaks very positively of birth parents. I do feel this is a good thing. Although his memories of them are really of contact not of before.

Thanks for your wise words.

Again not much useful to add.
At that age, DD2 could normally be distracted out of minor crying pretty quickly. She had a friend who was a massive drama queen over the slightest hurt, and another friend with massive tantrums.
Tears always come more easily when tired.

Sounds like you are doing very well.

DS wasn't ever really much of a crier. I think he'd already learnt it was pointless.

When he did cry about something which obviously didn;t really merit tears, I would try to talk to him about it... "I don;t think you're really sad about X are you, perhaps you just feel a bit cross/frustrated rather than sad"

It was really my way of helping him "name" his feeling a bit better and also to get through that I wasn;t such a sucker that I didn't spot a bit of manipulation when it was happening!

But as I say it wasn't a regular occurrance here. DS is a fighter not a crier!

My DD1 is a big crier, even at 8yo. It's like her emotional nerves are all exposed with no protective coating. She has hardly any emotional resilience. For her, every time I say no or I can't fulfil her (often impossible) requests, she sees it as "proof" that I don't love her and responds with genuine distress and raw pain. She has been with me for over six years and has always been like it.

I suspect your DS may be tired with starting school etc and might be finding it a bit stressful.

Thanks Rain. Things are a lot better.

My ds is struggling a bit, I think, although he is also doing well, he seems to enjoy bits of school, feels proud of himself (in a totally genuine, good way) when things are going well. He is managing with the things I thought he may not, like having school lunches on some days (although most days he is home with me and all afternoons at home too).

My dd has found it so hard having a new brother because of jealousy but actually her high emotions are always there and always have been! I have seen some very touching moment between them and they are becoming more loving with each other.