Hard time with 6 yo dd

[RooCluckers]

I'm having a hard time at the moment with my daughter. We have two dd placed with us nearly two years ago. Our eldest is 6 and I still feel as if I'm struggling to connect with her. She hates not being in control of things and resists being parented. She doesn't want help with reading, anything really, and when you ask her to do or not do something she argues with you. She actually argues that things are not how I say they are even when I have seen them! She says she doesn't like being a child and wants to be a grown up.

She is always telling us she loves us, although this feels more because she wants us to say it to her. Which we do a lot! She asks for cuddles but then just lays on you in a really awkward way making no attempt to cuddle you back. She has a little sister and she is always trying to control her and tell her what to do and treat her like a baby and gets very jealous of anything we do with her sister so we have to repeat everything with her.

I'm really tired, I feel like everyday there is some sort of struggle and we are getting nowhere. I get really frustrated and confess sometimes I get cross with her when she's arguing with me and raise my voice. I am also guilty of trying to take things away from her as a consequence even though I know this wont work for her as we've been told this approach won't work for her. Nothing seems to make any difference really.

I had a hard time when I was little with a mother who knocked my self esteem and my confidence and i feel myself making the same mistakes with my dd. I feel like such a failure! My dd already feels like she has to be perfect for people to care about her and I'm so afraid of making this worse. I also feel really bad that I don't have these issues with my youngest dd. my youngest is a toddler and a real handful but I feel a really strong relationship with her. I really wish I could feel this way with my eldest dd too.

I suspect it's the way I think of things that needs to change. I don't have any friends who have adopted and I don't really feel like my friends understand. But I just wondered if anyone else ever feels like this or got any advice?

Will PM you.

Didn't want to read and run. Someone wise will be here soon. Meanwhile you have done the biggest and best any human being can do. Good luck OP.

This is not about something you're doing wrong
What kind of post-adoption service do you have locally? Have they suggested anything that you feel could help?

It wouldn't be useful to try and guess the causes or issues without knowing your daughter, but whatever they are, it sounds like they might be coming out now because she feels secure enough to express them, two years into joining your family. This is a result of you making her feel she can safely do that - you're showing you're there for her.

Big unmumsnetty hugs to you. I hope either your post-adoption team or perhaps BAAF or Adoption UK might be able to make specific recommendations that will help you all.

So sorry to hear this roo do you have any professional support, post adoption support etc that you can access.

Good luck. Ask anything you would like or pm me. No, I do not have all or perhaps any of the answers but I have a quirky, slightly difficult birth dd and a new very controlling adopted ds so I also on the journey to get answers!

Yes, I could write this of my birth dd.... "She actually argues that things are not how I say they are even when I have seen them! She says she doesn't like being a child and wants to be a grown up."

She is dyslexic and I think that does affect how kids see the world (ad adults too) they may even feel things happen in a different order to the way others see them.

Your said "We have two dd placed with us nearly two years ago. Our eldest is 6 and I still feel as if I'm struggling to connect with her. She hates not being in control of things and resists being parented. She doesn't want help with reading, anything really, and when you ask her to do or not do something she argues with you."

I wonder if you can build up some time just bonding not parenting, doing stuff like painting or gardening where you are not offering your opinion or being an expert but just doing the stuff together. Have another person looking after little one (if you have a partner or relative etc) and spend that time when you can doing stuff to build connection.

Can I ask (feel free to pm if you prefer) but what parenting advice and help have you had, have you done any parenting courses?

I can really recommend the a Parenting Puzzle as a book and the Family Links Nurturing course as a course, although not designed for adoption situations I did it prior to adoption (trouble with my birth dd, who at the time was 7, now is 9) and when I did the adoption parenting course they used family links stuff. It is all based around empathy,

www.familylinks.org.uk/shop/schools-shop/the-parenting-puzzle

www.familylinks.org.uk/parents/i-want-to-do-the-parenting-puzzle-course

And yes, I can recognise " She asks for cuddles but then just lays on you in a really awkward way making no attempt to cuddle you back." My dd kept falling into me and I took it as aggression where as now I see she needed to connect but did not know how to.

Please hear me when I say that YES I know it is different for a birth child and an adopted child to exhibit challenging behaviour and there may be different reasons etc and it is not the same! But it is possible that you can learn and develop some ideas from regular parenting books.

Course and books may help. Opt for books that are not routine or rigid, not Supernanny.

Maybe try

'Raising Happy Children' by Jan Parker and Jan Stimpson.

www.amazon.co.uk/Raising-Happy-Children-Every-Parents/dp/0340734647

Plus maybe try How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk

If you can get some professional advice from post adoption support they may be able to advise you were these books and resources fail and how to top up what is needed or alternatives that are similar but aimed at adoptive parents.

Please do pm me for a chat if you wish to.

Good luck and I think you are right, you need to change how you feel to some degree to make a change, maybe counselling would help you shake off this stuff from the past which is not your fault and free you to be the mum you want to be to the children you have.

oo err sorry bit long!!!

PS Polkadotpatty makes a good point, you have obviously done a great job to get her to feel so secure. Try and be kind to yourself.

Hi
I just wanted to say that my (birth) dd can be similar. I love her, but at times her behaviour is very challenging.

I find it hard because I had a very abusive childhood, and I really have no good parenting model to follow. I have had to make my own way as a parent.

One book I've found very helpful, and it seems to work very well with the DCs is '1,2,3 magic'. It allows us to diffuse situations without shouting, without being upset. It also allows dd a way to move on from a situation easily.

Hugs to you, I hope you find a way forward

PPS empathy, and three other things are in the family links course, self-awareness and self-esteem, appropriate expectations (these would be set by you in light of your situation not prescribed) and positive discipline.

familylinks.org.uk/at-a-glance/The-Nurturing-Programme

Reading back what I wrote it looks a bit know-it-all and bossy so very sorry am cooking dinner while typing and just shouting out ideas really! Certain;y before doing the course I was expecting a bit too much and was not sure exactly how much encouragement my dd really needed to do things in a way that promoted family harmony! She has a very strong sense of herself and is very independent, she will make a great grown up, and is a great child but she is a challenge and she finds it hard to fit into family rules, tell the truth etc.

Anyway, sorry if I sounded preachy. I don't mean to. I wish you all the best. Get help for you and your dd and remember what a great job you have done so far.

Thanks all, we're currently trying to get funding from the LA to get support near us. They are being a bit unhelpful although my dh is going to get on to them tomorrow. I think because my dd was so unchallenging in foster care the LA seem to be questioning what we asking for but I think Italiangreyhound is probably right she now feels comfortable.

Thanks for the book recommendations, I will check them out. I've been thinking I need to spend more quality time with her but have been putting it off because I'm worried about it going wrong. I need to man up a bit!!

It's good to get it off my chest a bit. My dh is so positive all the time, maybe some counselling for me would be good. I really thought I'd put everything behind me.

Thanks again.

Italian - I didn't think you were being preachy and bossy. I appreciate you taking the time to reply and am grateful for links as it is great to get some new ideas. Thanks again

Every move a child has, and every new environment they are in, may change the patterns of their behaviour, so being compliant or not-very-controlling in one placement doesn't mean it will be like that in the next one/adoptive home. However social services don't often seem to understand this IMHO, because they tell families "oh but he/she wasn't like that when she/he was living with x, so it must be your fault" blah blah blah. Which isn't how it is.

I've had 2 controlling children, one still at home, and it's hard. If they are trying to argue about stupid things or crazy things (such as "I did not do that thing which you just watched me do!") there is just no point trying to win the argument because you won't. So you have to find ways of ending it, but it's hard because your child might say or you might feel inside like stepping away is saying 'okay, you win, you didn't do it'. But actually, this isn't the case. I have varying degrees of success trying to extricate myself from arguments, but I find it important to avoid the temptation to ask "what happened" (when it's blatantly obvious) or "why did you do that?" etc because a lie and an argument is inevitable if I do that. So I skip straight to the consequence (I try for natural consequences as often as possible) or try and turn it into a joke or anything else possible.

I know what you mean about the cuddles, because both DD's would do that - and DD2 also used to love the cuddle in which she elbowed me very hard or the cuddle during which she stomped on my foot deliberately, or pressed on my windpipe etc etc. To be honest, I would simply end the cuddle when she did that, and not try to put up with it. We don't hug like that in this family, kind of thing. If it's hurting or feeling very uncomfortable, there's nothing wrong with saying so and saying to your child that they need to either change position or end the hug.

If you think counseling might be helpful, then personally I think that's a really good idea. We spend all our time trying to help our kids, but we sometimes need help ourselves, we need to look after ourselves, and putting our own health and needs aside isn't good for us.

It sounds like your DD also needs support and help, so pushing for funding for therapy is definitely something to keep doing.

Thanks Lilka, can I ask you what natural consequences are?

Hi Roo, could your Dd have a form of attachment disorder?

Thanks Roo, but it was ** who said "..it sounds like they might be coming out now because she feels secure enough to express them, two years into joining your family." I am not that perceptive.

If you are not a man you do not need to ... man up a bit!! You need to woman up!

I do think you are worrying too much if you think time together will go wrong. Maybe think about what has worked before and keep it short and sweet. A treat, painting a mug, visiting somewhere nice, the park, swimming whatever she will enjoy. Remember to say how much you enjoy doing whatever it is with her.

Having a positive or negative partner when you feel the opposite can be stressful. If your dh is positive then it must be hard to also be positive if you actually feel negative. I am quite a positive person and I try and jolly everyone up, or try to. I know it can be annoying.

I am sure Lilka will be back to talk about her natural consequences. For me one might be that if my dd can't get ready on time to do something that would be special for her, then we won't do it! That would be stuff just for her, I would want want ds or the rest of us to miss out. I would also want it to be something small, such as if you are ready before we go out you can have 10 minutes on the trampoline etc - not missing a family wedding! Or if the kids cannot watch TV without arguing I will take away the remote controls and they will have no TV for the rest of the day etc. But Lilka may disagree.

Oopse

I mean, thanks Roo, but it was Polkadotpatty who said "..it sounds like they might be coming out now because she feels secure enough to express them, two years into joining your family."

I am not that perceptive.

Natural consequences are letting your child experience what happens naturally if they don't do xyz. Eg. DD2 totally refuses to put her shoes on to go to the corner shop. Okay fine, don't bother wearing them. We go anyway, and she goes shoeless. Basically, my attitude is 'it doesn't actually matter whether you go shoes on or shoeless, and I'm not going to stand and shout about it'

I also use the phrase 'natural consequences' for any logical/related follow on to bad behaviour. I think it's actually called 'related consequences' but oh well, I mean the same thing. Basically, the consequence has to be related to the behaviour. So - DD1 deliberately drops a plate on the floor. and smashes it to try and make me angry. An unrelated consequence would be taking away her television time. A related (or what I call natural) consequence would be that she has to clean up the plate and pay for a new one out of her pocket money. And if she tries to argue and say 'I didn't do it' I take her pocket money and buy a new plate with it anyway.

I find that these types of consequences work better for my kids controlling behaviour than anything else.

Of course, the pocket money thing does rather depend on your child being motivated by money. A lot of kids I know aren't bothered by things/money being taken away from them. DD1 was because she was still deliberately breaking things when she was 12/13 and by that time she was smoking so she needed the money to get hold of cigarettes. My God, the arguments because I wouldn't just buy them for her (even though I was buying them for her because I was giving her the pocket money in the first place )

I have a DS who sounds like a milder version of your DD - he's 8 and was adopted at 13 months and he is both compliant AND controlling! He does the telling you black is white when I've seen the black! I just say "You do realise that you saying that doesn't actually make it true - yes? But if you need to pretend that for some reason then thats fine with me". To be fiar he is more compliant than controlling which is some ways is easier to deal with practically but is heartbreaking when you see how keen they are not to do the wrong thing in case it affects what you think of them.

I've decided DS has (entirely undiagnosed) insecure attachment ie scared its going to end and so does the "I love you" "I love you" "I love you" when he was little at its worst it was every minute all day probably. He has it under control a bit more now but partly because we've worked quite hard on reassuring him. Its hard not to make "I love you too" mechanical in these situations but try to by a) saying it first sometimes not just responding b) saying something different and concrete back "I love you because you try so hard when you practice your writing".

I have also played the "I would even love you if..." game occasionally with DS so that gradually he has begun to accept that I will always love him no matter what. I always apologise if I am really grumpy or shouty - not necessarily for what I said (if it was necessary) but for being aggressive - "I'm sorry I shouldn't have shouted but I'm tired and sometimes its hard to ask nicely when you're tired and have asked for something before"

We also have natural consequences rather than rewards or punishments - so "If you cannot stop shouting we will have to leave the restaurant as people here have come for a nice lunch out and we can;t spoil it for them". Ie there is a consequence to actions which she can make choices about. It isn't a punishment it is a natural consequence of how she's behaving eg running out of time to do something nice, breaking stuff needs to be taken away etc. Give her choices - would you prefer to X or Y choices is a form of control.

I think in your case I would possibly also empathise with her feeling that she doesn;t want to be a child "I can understand that - its sometimes not very nice that you don't get to chose everything in your life - but even adults don;t get to chose everything (insert example of having to work for a living, pay bills etc) and there are some lovely things about being a child which I will miss doing with you when you grow up - bedtime stories, going swimming together etc etc.

I think you do need to teach her how to find the physical comfort she needs - when she lays on you for a hug, play with her hair or get her to comb your hair or draw pictures with her finger on your arm and do the same to her. Teach her to do a quick tight squeeze - hugs don't need to be long and awkward!

My DS has been home 7 years and is older and still has some of these issues. Your DD hasn't been with you for barely a third of her life - I would guess that she still needs "coaching".

Sorry that turned into a bit of an essay

I agree with Kew, I've had to coach/teach DD2 the right way to hug, kiss etc, where she should hold her arms and not stick her elbows. We used to have 'rocking time' where she sat on my lap on my big rocking chair and I just rocket her back and forward for ages. I found scheduling in that time really helpful, because if she was clinging and demanding a hug every 10 seconds and whenever DS had one on top of that, I would say 'yes I'll hug you later at x time and it will be a proper cuddle' or even 'yes later at x time but right now I can't trust you not to hurt me' etc. I felt bad refusing to hug her every single time she wanted one but actually that option wasn't a feasible strategy, nor was it teaching her not to deliberately hug me in an uncomfortable/painful way (which was partly deliberate and a control/attachment related issue IMHO and so needed addressing)

That cut off somehow

I was wondering whether scheduling in times for hugs or other bonding activities may help? There are some bonding type activities you can try at home with children like ours, based on Theraplay. I can look for a list of them if you'd be interested in trying any of them. They promote eye contact, sometimes physical contact, and the parent and child engaging together in a structured way. Things I used to do with DD2 included lying stomach down and trying to blow a feather onto each others face, or roll a ball to each other and try to make shapes on the floor with it, or me giving her a foot massage and vice versa. They were helpful because she didn't 'do' free imaginative play well at all. Of course she was very oppositional and tried to control it or ruin it sometimes, but overall I'm glad we did try it.

I don't think you should beat yourself up about having a closer relationship with your younger DD. Reality is, relationships are a two way thing, and so it's actually very normal that you would have a closer relationship with a child who doesn't have these issues with forming relationships to such a degree. Also children have different personalities and it's also normal for parents full stop to have different relationship dynamics with their different children.

However, whilst I totally understand that this behaviour can make you want to pull away and not hug her so much etc., I think it's important that you force yourself to ignore these impulses and make yourself do these things with her. It's about your actions, not your feelings when you're trying to strengthen a bond, and it's actions which usually lead to more feelings developing

Can you look into whether there any adopter support groups in your area? Your LA may know, I think adoptionUK have a few dotted around or I can ask around for you if you want, I know adoptive parents online in most areas of the country?

Hi, thanks all for your replies and to those that pm'd me. There's loads of information there and I will have a good look through and try to make some positive changes. I may get back to some of you later once I have got my head round things. It is so helpful to hear that others have been there and found a way through! Thanks so much

I'm not sure that any of us found a way through Roo however we're here alive and kicking albeit possibly still works in progress! Good luck.

Sorry I haven't read all of the post, but our DS does this with the cuddles sometimes, but he will turn it into tickles and games, or even ask for 'a tickle cuddle' I think it's just how he feels comfortable with it some of the time.

Likewise I expect to get a lot more from him as he gets older with regards to wanting to be a grown up, as he often makes references to such things even now at the age of 5.

He is still quite complaint, more so than his peers, however we are getting more glimpses of 'cheekier' behavior which we are actually delighted with - albeit few and far between.