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Adoption

Here are some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on adoption.

Umm, is this normal?

55 replies

Piffyonarock · 17/06/2014 22:28

Hello, long time no post, hope you are all very well Smile

I wonder if I could have the benefit of your experience? My DS (5) has a history of agressive behaviour, as well as raging, inability to self-regulate, running away and generally being quite a handful. The school is involved and an Ed Psych, but this all seems painfully slow moving, the Ed Psych has suggested attachment disorder.

One of the things that I am finding hard to cope with is the physical agression towards me and DD (4), and some of the things that he says e.g. today he has threatened to stab me in the stomach, rip my throat out and to drop a brick on my heart to make it stop. I ignore sometimes or pick him up on it without getting angry, but I do find it hurtful Sad. Other times he is Mummy's boy and loves cuddles etc.

As well as being worried about DS, I suffer from anxiety and I think I'm finding some of this triggering memories of being bullied and otherwise traumatised in the past which isn't helping - my GP wants me to stop taking my citalopram, but I really don't want to.

Would anyone else think that this was cause for concern and pursue GP/CAMMHS/Post Adoption Support, or would you think normal age and stage, he'll grow out of it? DD is copying, so it is all getting a bit wearing.

Thank you for reading that essay!

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Devora · 19/06/2014 17:45

Kew could I have that presentation too?

MerryInthechelseahotel · 19/06/2014 18:30

I was thinking "I would love that presentation. I wonder if I would be cheeky asking!" So can I please? Grin

Piffyonarock · 19/06/2014 18:54

Thank you very much Kewcumber, I've pm'd you. I think I have anyway, never pm'd before!

Well today I went and asked my mum for some help with getting back on top of the house, and had a cry because I hate asking. But she's coming round tomorrow to help me see the wood for the trees.

I made that GP appointment.

The Ed Psych did come back as promised and gave me a number to ring, I think the number is for Post Adoption Support. She is organising some training for school around attachment.

Not been an easy day, DS has refused to speak to anyone or move all afternoon at school and has been hyper and rather horrid at home. Took a bloody hour to get them home ansdwe literally live round the corner from school. I'm having five minutes having been spat at and threatened with kicks and punches from the two of them because it was time to come in. Will tackle pyjama time in a minute (gives self pep talk).

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Kewcumber · 19/06/2014 20:04

No problem - PM me with an email Merry (I can't attach files to a PM)

Kewcumber · 19/06/2014 20:04

Devora - do I have an email addy for you?

Devora · 19/06/2014 20:50

I am shocked that you don't, but will pm you.

MerryInthechelseahotel · 19/06/2014 21:29

piffy I hope you get some good helpful support soon Thanks remember a lot of difficult behaviours stem from anxiety, just hold on to that. If I was near I would offer to help you with housework etc not that I do my own, can't stand doing mine Grin

Kewcumber · 19/06/2014 21:58

I'm not sure if I have or not Devora - maybe I have... dunno...

Piffyonarock · 19/06/2014 22:15

Aww thanks Merry - I'm a stay at home mum, I should do my own housework! One things that hasn't helped our family situation is that I'm a sod for spreading myself too thin and taking on extra projects. I think I can fit them in but really I can't. Its a bit of a work avoidance tactic as I'm quite a rubbish housewife truth be told. We've got a hangover of domestic maintenance jobs dating from before the children arrived and the house is looking horribly shabby, probably not helping any of us to feel chirpy. DH hates his job and is getting down with coming home to a mess, tantrums and a dispondent wife. Obviously money is a lot tighter than it was.

Another issue is that our support network is diminishing a bit, am trying to build that back up again though. But we don't like asking anyone to babysit because the house is such a state.

We're are a fairly resiliant, resourceful couple but we haven't half let a few things get on top of us Sad

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bronya · 19/06/2014 22:29

Hi,
I haven't adopted, but have worked with children who have been neglected and abused. I have also rehabilitated previously abused/neglected animals (my small bit of actually being able to make a real difference rather than having my hands tied all the time!).

What I would say is that this aggression is fear, frustration, and/or confusion. Fear that the one they love will turn on them, frustration that they cannot express themselves fully and cannot make sense of their conflicting emotions, confusion that you do not act the way they expect, so they're constantly waiting for you to turn on them. Yet you don't, and the suspense builds and builds until they lash out, hoping in a way that it will bring the anger from you and that it will be over, that they will know what you will do, so the cycle can start again.

In a house with a parent on drugs/alcohol/with mental problems there is often that inconsistency. One moment (when the parent is well), the child is loved, needed and wanted. They are cuddled, their every need met, taken to the park, all is good. Then, seemingly in an instant, that all changes. All the parent cares about is their next fix/meeting their needs. The child is an unwanted burden, their cry the last straw - the parent lashes out verbally and/or physically. In their young mind, the child tries to make sense of this. What did I do? Why do they react so differently? They can't make it work, but they feel unlovable, and as if it's always their fault. They learn the cycle - that there will be good, then bad, then good, then bad. They see the good times get shorter and less frequent, the bad longer and more violent. Then they are taken into care.

But that pattern is set. All they have ever known is that pattern. It is nice when the good times are here, but they won't last. The tension of waiting for it all to go wrong is unbelievable. It feels as if it would be easier if it just did, for they will understand that, it will be familiar. So they act out, try to get you to act 'bad' towards them. The less you react, the more they act out, trying to trigger that behaviour that will make things seem normal.

In animals, it is so much more straightforward, but even there, it helps to keep a daily diary - of the good things and the bad. You can see patterns, work out what the triggers are and more about that individual's past.

resipsa · 19/06/2014 22:33

That is heartbreaking.

MerryInthechelseahotel · 19/06/2014 23:01

Honestly don't worry about your house being a mess etc people who judge you on your house aren't worth bothering with, really!

When children arrive I think it knocks you for six whether they are babies or older and you had two at once. Your mind will be on so many things and it is stressful living with someone (or two) who is traumatised however much you love them.

It's easy for me to say start letting go of projects and start making lists to tackle your own house but maybe that will come naturally. All in good time. Tell DH if you had given birth to twins he would be coming home to tears, mess and a possibly grumpy mum. Be patient for a little while longer Thanks

MerryInthechelseahotel · 19/06/2014 23:04

Wow bronya that is such a good post!

ancientbuchanan · 20/06/2014 09:46

I'm a crap housekeeper too. Remember, food, relative cleanliness, and a bit of fun are the only things that really matter. DH was bedbound for two years, with Ds seriously ill. I gave up ironing for Lent, and save for work shirts that's it. It's desirable, not mandatory ( I expect to be flamed for this).

Hygiene is important, but a few germs here and there build immunity. My family must now have magnificent immune systems.

Fun includes quiet time. DM insisted on quiet time after lunch for us. Something like 45 mins in our room. We didn't have to sleep, but we couldn't make a huge noise. I liked drawing on walls. So she covered the walls with brown paper and I drew on them. I was a pretty disturbed child, , was on various calming drugs from an early age and seeing psychiatrists etc, and this period of learning to be quiet, reduce the stimulation, was important. I could have the door open, to check DM was there, or closed, it was my choice, but I needed to be quiet. I think she came in with me to begin with, just sat in s chair.

Her presence but inattention was calming after the first few times / weeks of trying to wind her up.

I must have been three at the time.

rootypig · 20/06/2014 09:59

Oh god no flaming on the lack of cleanliness. LP to a toddler, I do the dishes, clean the loo, change the beds, clean clothes and towels, food on the table, and that's about it. No ironing, no mopping, no dusting, no scrubbing of the shower, I run round for ten minutes every day and tidy toys and books back into their corners. That's all there's time for, and that's with less stress than most of you guys here.

ancient your mum's approach to you drawing on the walls was great.

Swanhildapirouetting · 20/06/2014 10:08

Bronya such a brilliant post.

Do you think that boundaries, preset, help make the child who is poorly attached feel there is less likely to be a cycle of good and bad reactions from the parents. Do you think there is any way to avoid the "pushing" to the limit? Inevitably parents do get stressed and angry with childrens' behaviour, which is presumably what you are saying the child expects and is building up to, and indeed pushing for (as a form of resolution)

And all of us get angry and stressed just from other things, losing stuff, domestic disasters, things outside our control, work pressures, lack of sleep, the behaviour of other siblings, relatives. What is the best way for a child who is adopted or aggressive to process this? Is there a way we can explain to children we are feeling sad or cross or fed up without somehow them feeling implicated? Because I don't think anyone can be superhumanly consistent. Although we all make it our goal.

I would be very interested to hear your thoughts.

bronya · 20/06/2014 10:46

I have found that understanding the WHY of the behaviour helps to prevent me becoming frustrated/upset at what they are doing. It is a bit like when a baby cries in pain - it isn't irritating in the slightest, all you want to do is fix it for them, and you cry a little bit inside at your inability to fix it immediately. That empathy that you feel communicates to them, and they find solace in your presence.

With a child who has experienced what I posted above, it is important to help them make their new world make sense; to show them that THIS is how it should be. THIS is the order they were looking for. THIS is normal life. It is also important to give them an outlet for their confusion. So explaining everything to start with, ESPECIALLY if you are upset about something. You have a child with no normal frame of reference. Every time you are upset, they do not know if you'll spiral into uncontrollable anger, how long it will last, or what you will do. They could never see a pattern in what upset their carer before, you need to show them the pattern, and help them understand your emotions. From there, they can begin to understand their own. Explain what has upset you, how you're feeling, what you're doing about it, the lot.

xx sweetheart, Mummy has lost her keys. Have you seen them? Ok, I'll just look for them (take deep breath!). You can come with me and look if you want. I am worried because we need to find them so we can take the dog for her walk. I am sure they are here somewhere! Where did I last see them? I think I had them when I brought the shopping in for the car. Let's go and look in the kitchen. (if LO has come in with you - I'm looking in the bags we had, if you want to help you could look in the cupboard where I put the crisps...). Keep verbalizing your thoughts, keep as calm as you can, until you find them. If LO has come to help, you don't want to scare them, but it would be really good for them if they could feel they had the power to change things, to help you look, and then, once you spot them (e.g. next to your shoes, in the hall) you could pretend you haven't seen them, ask LO to look there, and let THEM find them. Lots of praise for finding them, and a cuddle.

It is about re-training their expectations, showing them what a normal emotional response to each situation is, helping them to understand that behaviour and what they can do about it. Even you articulating, 'I'm worried about xx so I'm going to take a deep breath and count to ten to calm myself down,' provides reassurance (you do know how to calm down so won't explode on them) and a model for their own emotional responses.

They need to find their new pattern and know what to predict. So ground rules that are explicitly set out, with explicit consequences for undesirable actions are fantastic. You need to be very careful of their past experiences when devising those consequences (as previous posters have mentioned!), but it helps to set a frame of reference for their daily life with you. The initial reactions to any consequence can be rather dramatic, but as soon as the consequence has happened, you need to be totally over whatever they did, all smiley and happy and yourself again. Then they know that the consequence ends there. That's it.

Equally, some behaviours stem from them copying their previous carers. They may think it is an act of love to tell someone they will kill them, for example, or to hit. Their minds are so confused, that you need to explain carefully and lovingly, why a behaviour is not desirable, and what it does to the recipient. That said, a total, out of control tantrum is best left to burn itself out somewhere safe. We used to leave the room when one child started throwing chairs. Once he'd stopped, then was time to explain what he had done, to get him to help clear it up, to give him reassurance that we didn't hate him for it. That trigger was found pretty quickly, but it triggered such extreme emotions in one so young, that he literally could not control them. Having choices helped another child. "You can do this with me now, do it on your own, or do it with me later." They had some control over their own life for the first time ever.

When working with animals (so much simpler!) it has taken 3-6 months for them to totally relax and trust ME. Anything up to 3 years though for them to trust that others will react as I do, to learn to control their own emotions appropriately and for their true personalities to show through. Often the most aggressive/extreme behaviours stem from the most sweet, generous and giving personalities. The hurt is far deeper. That said though, one of the horses I rehabilitated (she was beaten as a training method and came terrified and aggressive) now works at a centre for traumatised children from that sort of background. She has an amazing empathy for them and is totally trustworthy, whatever they do.

DwellsUndertheSink · 20/06/2014 11:13

bronya your posts are amazing, I am in awe. Ive had such a difficult couple of days, my LO has added biting to his repetoir, and seeing a different perspective on his behaviour has helped me today, so thank you!

Swanhildapirouetting · 20/06/2014 11:16

My sister has a very sweet gentle labrador (a rescue) who snarls and barks whenever she sees a man in a hat Sad. It is quite a good example of what you describe. A man in a hat would have to spend a lot time densensitising her responses for her to trust men in hats.

I see now, that is so helpful. Random reactions are what make children so scared as well as over the top reactions to everyday situations with no explanation.

bronya · 20/06/2014 11:40

Pretty much life in general is terrifying when you've had a bad past and have grown to expect everything to go wrong at any moment, Swanhildapirouetting! The suspense is horrific. That, and triggers specifically related to their past. So some children lose it if you are too loving, some react to the sound of pots and pans banging around, some to specific words or phrases, to innocent seeming actions like hanging the washing out (if that used to throw their carer into a fit of rage)... Some children try to control everything, some never want to make a decision again. Each one is different, and none of it is deliberate. They're just trying to cope (and often failing). A confused little child who cannot make sense of the world around them. That's why keeping a diary helps so much. You can also then see the tiny bits of progress day to day, week to week. It helps!

ancientbuchanan · 21/06/2014 18:07

Bronya, you are articulating very well what I have found with a great deal of trial and error.

Other things that helped us included,

Me saying, " I'll always love you, no matter what, ( see book ref above),.it's just your behaviour I don't like/ find upsetting at the momemt.

Getting them to articulate verbally why they are upset and being able to analyse it " I get frightened because/ I thought you meant..."

Saying sorry if I have been badtempered or upset them unwittingly ( or wittingly)- children should see other people apologising, and not just to them, but to others as well,

Moving on. Grumpiness does not mean that everything now falls apart. And they need to become resilient and understand everyone gets cross sometimes.

Working out what makes them cross, and what makes other people cross. My DM said that the worst punishment was only brought to bear if I was all of naughty, disobedient, and dangerous. ( I don't quite remember it like that....)

As someone else has said, having techniques to vent the rage through, eg scribbling wildly, the crumpling up the page and throwing it in the bin. You have to get it in the bin, if you don't, you need to throw it again until you do.

Hth

Piffyonarock · 03/09/2014 11:17

Zombie thread alert, just thought I'd update you very helpful people with where things have gone with this.

Since I last updated, I have been pleasantly surprised with the support that has been put in for us by our post-adoption team. I now see a co-ordinating support worker and a clinical psychologist, and over the summer I have had a support worker who has some out on trips out with me and DCs to give me an extra pair of eyes and hands - it was such a luxury! Meant I enjoyed the trips rather than regretting attempting them. School seem to be stepping up too, I had several meetings with DSs new teacher about managing him with the transistion to the new year and the SENCO is booked onto to attachment training.

I'm finding it hard going with the psychologist, I keep getting very emotional which is not something I usually do with the professionals, but I think it is really hitting home that my lovely little DS has got quite a serious problem and I so hope we can solve it so that he can be happy.

I've got an appointment through for a counsellor for me, I need to sort out getting to that as it's been pretty full on over the holiday.

Hope you all weathered the school holidays well, and that you're all doing brilliantly. Thank you for all your kind support, it is very much appreciated.

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QOD · 03/09/2014 12:27

Ah what a lovely update!

Italiangreyhound · 03/09/2014 16:44

Piffyonarock fantastic news. Thank you so much for updating us.

Please, if you can, keep your emotions directed at the specific problem when you see counsellor psychologist and get your help in your sessions so you can be fully engaged for your son in his. I know it is hard. I am a very emotional person with some baggage and it is very hard when the kids have problems not to allow it to trigger my own thoughts after a time of OCD/dyslexia/problems at school etc. But as I have managed to do this more over the years I have found it easier, and my dd has not encountered the same school problems as me (so far) so I need to keep in perspective when dealing with her stuff.

DS has settled in very well and is relatively easy. The hassle in life is from the two of them fighting!

Anyway, hope you do not mind me saying because I know how overwhelming it all can be although not quite the same as your situation, I am sure.

Piffyonarock · 03/09/2014 22:39

Hi Italian, you're right about that, it can be a bit confusing when you have triggering thoughts/emotions, it makes it a bit harder to trust your own judgement in some situations. I've still not rearranged the appointment. It's a big issue for us I think, he knows what upsets me and uses it against me e.g. breaking things of mine or things that I've made for him.

Had a bit of a drama coming out of school, DS had been oppositional and boundary pushing through the day and was furious that the teacher wanted to speak to me about it. He pinched and kicked and scratched, and then he slapped a teacher who was trying to get down to his level and be all nice and calming with him. Ended up marching him home holding him firmly but as far away from me as possible and without his shoes on to avoid the kicks, must have looked delightful. DD carried both bags bless her.

Took him to swimming and the to beavers, DD went to my mums so that was easier. He did better at swimming than he has been doing, spent the last few sessions sitting on the side mostly. He enjoyed beavers, although I think he spent quite a lot of time hiding under a table from what I can gather.

I am very tired now! Hope you've all had a good day.

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