Ignore ignore ignore. Or not? Really need some advice.

[happypotter]

I'm a long time reader of the adoption threads and occasional poster. I really would appreciate some advice.

We adopted our son at 8 months and he is now 3.7. He is our pride and joy and an absolute delight. He is full of character but shows some very challenging behaviour, which is where my worry and confusion comes in.

He has always been very stubborn (his pre-school teacher says that at the start of the year he was the most strong-willed child she had ever taught but has made good progress) and he exhibited lots of the usual 'unwanted' toddler behaviours, hitting, biting, not getting dressed etc

He has always had a very bad reaction to 'no'. Initially we wondered if this was because in his foster placement (where he was from two weeks old) there was another child who was quite lively who may have been told 'no' lots. He has always been a very chunky, solid child and very strong. He would refuse to sit on the naughty step. I would read all the advice on here about, 'well, make them stay and keep putting him back on it' but that didn't work as I wasn't comfortable with restraining him.

We had been going through a much better stage from about 3 - 3.6 and now things are going horribly wrong. I must say that 80% of the time he is fine but the minute things don't go his way, his behaviour just turns. His latest is to shout 'Go away, get out of my face' to me. Clearly this is something we have never said to him. I tried given him warnings as when I was ignoring the shouting he would hit me. I then would have to carry him to his room in order for him (and me) to get a bit of space but now he can open the stairgate.

I've been reading about attachment disorder and how conventional methods of behaviour management are not always the best ones to use with adopted children, so I've been trying the ignore ignore ignore approach. At home, when I first tried this, after the shouting and hitting he then started throwing things at me, each time I said no firmly, and after a couple of minutes he did stop, calm down and say sorry.

My worry is that there are some situations were this isn't really suitable. We were playing at a friend's house yesterday and one of her girls took something from him, my friend dealt with it but as ds was upset, he started shouting at me, the 'Go away, get out of my life/face' thing'. I told him not to worry and I understood he was upset but he just carried on.

I'm at the stage now where I worry about taking him out. He is now a sturdy 40lb boy and I am a 5ft lightweight so it's not easy for me to just 'remove him'

Please help, where do I go next. I think my mind started racing after reading the story and comments about the family in the daily mail the other day and now I am picturing the worse case scenarios for the future.

I just need some perspective as whether the issues are just being a toddler, related to ds being an only child or attachment.

Just to add, I moved to the US a couple of years ago so am on a different timescale so I apologise if I don't reply to any posts straight away.

I really need some words of wisdom. TIA.

Hi happypotter, I am afraid I have no advice and nothing to add apart from a wish for good luck and to tell you that you sound like a lovely mum.

I lurk on the adoption pages quite a lot because my dad was adopted and my mum was a foster child. I expect someone with lots of sage advice and words of wisdom will be along shortly.

On a more minor level DS went through something similar around four but more tantrum based. I did lots of "time-in", he had to sit on my lap doing nothing for one minute for each year of his age. If he continued shouting and screaming I started timing again.

I was ruthless about it and the first few times it was very difficult. Then it all started calming down other than the occasional grump/tantrum which I consider to be par for the course.

You will never know whether it is personality related or adoption related. You just need to make sure that any techniques you use to handle him are compatible with a child whose base anxiety levels about punishment and separation are likely to be higher than the norm (IMVHO!).

I don't know anything at all about adoption, but I don't think what you've described is very unusual for a 3 1/2 year old.

I've read a wonderful book recently, Playful Parenting. It's written by a play therapist and talks a lot about attachment. His main idea is that when children act out (e.g. hitting, being stroppy etc) it is generally because they are feeling isolated and / or powerless. He has lots of ways of using play to make children feel more connected and more powerful. While the approaches he recommends are probably great for almost all kids, if you have particular concerns about attachment issues, I think a lot of his suggestions would definitely be worth a shot. It's a very kind book and it's approach is quite different from most "discipline" books on the market.

Thank you for your responses.

Hearts You're post made me a bit teary (in a nice way) I so want to be a good mum but feel at my lowest point since the adoption and that I'm failing him. I was a primary school teacher before becoming a sahm and thought I 'got' children. I look back and think how naive I was.

Kew I agree about needing the 'right' approach and not knowing whether it is personality or adoption related. My worry is that if I just put things down to personality, then I might be doing further harm by using the 'wrong' approach. But I don't want to be seen to be just ignoring what's happening. The adoption may be a reason for the rages, but I don't want the adoption to be seen as an 'excuse' and the behaviour not tackled. I have tried the 'time in' approach but when he is in the middle of one of the raging tantrums, I physically am not strong enough to hold him :-( This does work with my dh though.

neolara Thank you for your tip, I have that book and have found it useful in a general way. My worry is when the approaches within that book don't work, where to go next? As I said, most of the time he is great and as with most toddlers, when things are going their way life is good.

It has got to the stage where I feel I have no sanction at all with him. I don't want to restrain him on the naughty step, I don't think putting him in his room and 'holding' the door is appropriate for him, I want to be consistent and I don't think ignoring the behaviour at home and then responding in a different way on public is the way forward.

I read so much on here about 'well, they will do that' or 'I will make them'. That just doesn't work with ds. Or am I being too soft?

OMG - I love 'time in' - INSPIRED!!!!!!

Why aren't you strong enough to keep him on your lap? Face him away from you and if necessary hold him arms by his side with yours in a bear hug. It might sound brutal but is actually quite gentle and not particularly threatening (at least to DS) I only had to do it a couple of times for him to realise I wasn't going to concede and sit on my lap with (relative) good grace. We always had a kiss and hug at the end and I asked him if he felt better which he always did. DS used to feel quite scared by his own uncontrollable emotions.

The time in thing came from a very swift realisation that DS was terrified of time out/naughty step or anything which used separation or aloneness as a punishment. really he didn't need to be punished just a safe place to calm down and reflect. Subsequently I discovered its an established technique so I can;t claim credit for developing it!

DS did improve once he became articulate enough to talk about how he felt. although he is still prone to melt down occasionally and did suffers from separation anxiety, he's better at covering it up these days.

Ok, I will try again. The reason I am not strong enough physically is that he is a tall, strong 40lb and I am 7 1/2 st and short with it. When I have tried to keep him on my lap, there is only so long I can do it and avoid being head butted when he is throwing himself around. When I have tried it, it seems to make matters worse but I will try again. Thanks.

"I read so much on here about 'well, they will do that' or 'I will make them'. That just doesn't work with ds. Or am I being too soft?"

No! "I will make them" only works for parents with compliant natured children. A very strong willed child (birth children as well) won't be 'made' past a certain point (that book by Amy Chua comes to mind here).

I think people worry too much about making 'excuses' for being adopted. Many of our children have very unstable pasts at the very least, and parenting differently is not an excuse, it's just making a reasonable adjustment for it. I find generally that I can't tackle the behaviours unless I tackle the underlying feelings. When I tried tackling one behaviour without tackling the underlying problems, it just resulted in either that behaviour being replaced by some new different behaviour, or it wouldn't help at all and nothing changed. My parenting style is definitely very different to most other people I know, as I rarely use punishments. People think that equates to the kids running riot, when in fact their days are very structured and timetabled so they feel secure (having structure is very different to whether or not you use of of punishments/consequences, and my gut says that structure is much more important). You could have a look at the book 'Beyond Consequences' which I love, and is vey different to the Supernanny style parenting interventions you see elsewhere. It's not for everyone, but it works for my family.

I also think that we try and seperate things that can't actually be seperated (is this toddler, adopted child or something else?...). It all mixes up into one, and I don't think with all behaviours and feelings it is possible to know what is what. So use the parenting approach which works the best for you, whatever it is

I find 'time in' works very well with DS all the time, and DD2 some of the time, as they find it very hard to calm down and regulate themselves if I'm not there with them. My version of 'time in' involves them being close to me, although not necessarily touching me. We sit quietly, or dance to slow classical music, or do something simple like folding laundry together. Anything that isn't exciting and involves staying near me for at least 5 minutes.

Just to add to what you said before :

"I might be doing further harm by using the 'wrong' approach" I don;t think its that straightforward! You can already see that differnt things has worked for each of us. You just have to try a few things that work for both of you.

As to what BRan said - although different techniques worked for us there are a few things I agree with

" if he makes a request or demand I just repeat "Your two minutes start when you're sitting quietly on x". It can take him up to 40 mins to sit for two minutes, but once he has he's generally calmed down"

"Never threaten a discipline that you're not prepared to follow through, and be clear about consequences. I get DS to repeat things back to me so that I know that he has heard them properly. Always be consistent, for instance if DS uses a toy to hit or hurt someone the toy is taken away and put up high for a week. If he takes back the toy before the time is up it gets thrown in the bin. The melt downs were massive but the message got through very quickly."

I have actually left things we had arranged to do in order to carry out something I had threatened. You feel like a real heel but it does get through to them very quickly that you are in charge not them.

Others may think im over reacting....but if you have insurance i think you shoudo consider gettinng soem afoption specific therapeutic intervetion for him. There are a number of specialist services in the US with wonderful reputaions

Bran I found your post really interesting, that's exactly how I feel. I worry that as our ds gets bigger, then I need to do something effectively that doesn't involve a physical struggle. I think I will try the approach in your first paragraph, as when I tell him to go to the step, the initial response is always a 'no' so then then the battle begins and always escalates if I have to physically move him to get him there. I haven't yet accessed any of the adoption support in our area. I had a look online and a lot of the support seems to be for overseas adopters. Adoption seems to be very different here in the US.

Lilka Thank you for not saying I'm soft The book you suggested is one of the pile that arrived from amazon yesterday. I think you are right and that I will need to get my head around parenting in a different way. Since we moved, I have kept in touch with my rl friends I have made through adoption and see them whenever in the uk, but it's harder to share things on a day to day basis. The closest friend I have here is poles apart from me in terms of how our families came about, and as much as I think she tries to help, she doesn't quite 'get it'.

I really appreciate everyone's responses. Lots to think about.

Kristina2 Yes I think I will call the insurance company. Are you in the US? Do you know the names of any of the specialist services?

Kew Yes, I know you are right and that everyone has different things that work for them. I think I've just lost my confidence and got in a muddle, and that compounded with reading the daily mail article, made me think if I don't sort this now, we're in trouble. I appreciate your responses. Yes, I have carried ds out of many public places and avoided all of the glares. I still haven't taken him back to Target after a rather stressful situation last November!!

no I don;t think you're over-reactind Kristina! I had forgotten teh OP was in teh US

ATtachment and bonding centre in cleveland OH is excellent, but obviously i have no idea where you are in the us. Im sure they could recomend a specialist centre near you. I guess it also depends on your insurer and what coverage you have.

You son sounds as if he is feeling a lot of anger and loss, which is fuelling this rage. Although it might looklike a normal toddler tantrum, im guessing it feels very different.its about the intensity of the emotion. Thats why you are strugglimg to physically control him, even though hes just a small child. In the same way, He cant contain these stong feelimgs he has inside. Hopefully a little intervention now will help him deal with these feelimgs that he cant articulate

Of course i may well be wrong. But often a parents intincts that soemthing is not quite " normal" are correct. Its hard to trust your own judgement, especially when hes your first child. Worth checkimg out whats avaiable to you anyway

My brother used to throw massive tantrums- not all the time, but there were days when you just knew that something would trigger a tantrum. My mum was a thin frail-ish lady with probably Ehlers Danlos syndrome but she did what Kew describes in terms of cuddling restraint and I have no doubt it was the best for him.

But she also did what bran says and tried to distract from a tantrum if she possibly could. It often worked but there were also days when db seem to need his tantrums to work out his inner tension: you could see him going from person to person looking for ways to wind them up so that they could react in a way that would give him an excuse to get going.

I used to have to restrain dd up to the age of 10 and I am not a large lady. You have to know what you're doing, naturally, and you have to be pretty fearless. Dh was never able to do it, despite being bigger and stronger than me, because he was always worrying about getting hurt. I used to hold dd from behind with one hand restraining each of her arms, back her to a chair so I could sit down, keeping one foot on the floor for leverage and using the other to restrain her legs and just repeat in a very calm voice "no, you can't hurt anyone, no I am not going to let you hurt anyone". Over and over again.

Basically with both db and dd, if they were in tantrum mode, trying to make them sit on the steps would trigger a violent tantrum where they would deliberately go after you (or in db's case after siblings) and try to hurt you so restraint was the only way of keeping them safe; you couldn't physically get dd to the stairs without a fair bit of force.

Interestingly, both db (adopted) and dd (not adopted but traumatised in other ways) grew out of physical violence around the age of 10- just about the time when there was no adult in the house strong enough to hold them.

We were never in any doubt that what my db and dd did on a bad day was in a totally different league from an ordinary child's tantrum. There was just a total intensity there. But they have both come out of it unscathed: db is a very loving and patient dad to his own two children who have not inherited his tendencies and dd is a very pleasant teenager.

Kristina and Cory - That is exactly it. He doesn't tantrum that often but it's the pure rage he shows in the time it's happening that worries me. Admittedly, I don't have much experience with other toddlers but it just seems a bit too much which concerns me. Cory like you say about your brother, he sometimes seems to need to push and push and push in order to be 'told off' to enable him to tantrum and 'get it all out'. Thank you for sharing your experience.

I think I will try sitting with him on a chair as a step. I'm going to do some reading and look at the resources available here, thanks for the tip Kristina

Thank you to everyone who responded.

I can't comment on adoption-specific approaches but imo your ds sounds like a normal but spirited child. He sounds very similar to my ds. I have so many memories of holding him on my lap at other people's houses with people walking past me pretending they couldn't hear the screaming! I don't know why my ds has such a temper but things have improved so much with age. We still have bad days but he mostly controls himself now (he is 9). When he loses his temper, he is totally out of control. There is no point in talking to him until he calms down, which can take a long time. Afterwards he will tell me that he only said those hurtful things to me because he was angry. The rest of the time he is the most loving and affectionate boy you could imagine.

Some things which have helped reduce the number of outbursts:

• Having a routine. A stricter one than I would naturally want, but it has really helped. e.g. after school, he does homework before anything else; bedtime is 7.30pm - the clock tells him, not me. Sweets only at the weekend.
• Stand firm on whatever you feel are the most important issues - rudeness, hurting others etc. I have spent the last few years being the wall that will not fall down no matter how hard he pushes. I have been where you are with the "just make him" advice, but I can honestly say that nowadays DS might complain a lot, but he does stick to the boundaries.
• The rest of the time, we try to leave him alone. He wants to wear shorts in 5 degrees - fine. He refuses to do any after-school activities - ok.

Being this strong-minded is a great asset for later, just hard for the parents in the meantime!

Good luck.

Thank you purpledragon It's good to hear about non-adopted children behaving like this too. I like your sentence about the 'wall that will not fall down no matter how hard he pushes'. I think it will be my new motto

Hi happypotter. I agree with purpledragon.

Hi Happypotter - this is not my normal username but one I use for this subject - my sis had had care of my oldest niece since she was ~5mo. Her birth mother didn't want her, was an adopted child herself with issues (thrown out of her home for being pg was one of them) and the little girl ended up in hospital 3 times in the first 5m with bowel obstruction from improperly mixed formula.
SS were involved, and for reasons I won't go into exactly now, my sister took on the housing of this baby (who is the DD of her partner) and her mum, until the mum skipped off, leaving my sis holding the baby.

DN was a very introverted child to start with but opened up and has 2 younger halfsisters, with whom she gets on as well as any 3 girls close in age could be expected to. But she has had some challenging behaviours as well - anger management being one of them. She is also the most tense child I have ever come across - she is almost unable to relax! She has been to gym and dance classes but seems unable to let go of the tension in her body. I can't help but wonder if these are linked to her poor start in life, even at such a young age.

She is now 8 and has in the last couple of years been diagnosed with dyspraxia and possible ADHD. She only found out last year that my sis wasn't her biological mum but her problems preceded this discovery by several years, so it wasn't that consciously causing them, iyswim.

The anger management is the one that I think is most relevant to your own situation - my sister tried naughty steps, time out, ignoring - all sorts, but in the end DN just had to grow out of it to some extent and now with the diagnosis, she is getting help as well.

I don't think I'm necessarily offering any help on what to do - just hoping that it might offer more insight into why your DS is behaving like that - but then every child is different and of course your DS might have been treated beautifully before you got him.

Hope things get better for you soon xx

Thank you for your responses. It's interesting to see how some children similar to our ds have grown up. I feel a bit better about things this week and that in turn is helping the situation. We have had a calm few days. I think I got in such a tizz after reading the newspaper article I lost a bit of perspective. I'm still going to read the books and do some local research though as better to be prepared. All of the tips have been really helpful in making me reassess how I deal with things.