Backing out from post-doc sponsorship (at pre-application stage)

[aridapricot]

So a few months ago I met a recent PhD graduate at a conference, working on a similar topic to mine. In retrospect, there were a couple of red flags which I decided to ignore at the time clocking them down as social awkwardness/cultural differences, so when they asked me if I'd be in principle willing to sponsor them for a postdoctoral fellowship in the future (think the ones where the institution has to put you forward, you cannot apply as an individual) I said yes - our area of research is niche in the UK and I absolutely want to promote it.
Recently they e-mailed that they'd seen a suitable post-doc scheme advertised... I told them we had an internal deadline, and could they e-mail me a draft proposal before the internal deadline so that I could comment on it. After that, the whole process has been so fraught and draining... it transpired that they didn't have an idea for a postdoc but rather hoped that I could help them identify one (which I did not), then submitted something that was woefully underdeveloped (no bibliography was cited except for my own work, of which it was very derivative - although I am one of very few people working on this topic in the UK, internationally I am certainly not the only one), then they asked for the internal deadline to be moved, when I said no because I wanted to protect research office colleagues they asked if it could be moved anyway, then offered to submit something "even if it's incomplete" (in a scheme with a 3% success rate? What's the point?). Every time I didn't reply within 24 hours or so they would e-mail again to reiterate the same question (even when we were 3-4 weeks away from the internal deadline so there was no real urgency).
At the same time they were citing multiple difficulties why the proposal was underdeveloped and late, so I suggested - why not take time to develop the proposal and target a forthcoming scheme or deadline? At this point they became quite passive aggressive, saying they'd put a lot of work in the proposal and demanding I identify a scheme for them or help them organize a conference on the topic so that the work was not lost. They also accused me of "leaving them hanging". Again because I didn't reply immediately there were multiple e-mails in that tone... I finally replied that I would not sponsor them in this round or any other schemes because I found our working styles and expectations to be incompatible. After that they sent yet another e-mail which I haven't had the courage to open.
Rationally I probably know I've done the right thing... but was I wrong to raise expectations early? I keep thinking, I should have said no when I saw the first draft proposal (it seemed to me extremely unlikely it could be turned into something competitive within 2 weeks... but then you never know, maybe there was a 0.1% chance or so), or even at the very beginning when it was clear to me there was something off. How do you manage aspiring post-doc expectations in the application process, do you feel you can 'dump' them at any point between agreeing to sponsor them and submitting the application if it becomes obvious you are not a good match?

You are way overthinking this.

You tried to do a nice thing.
They turned out to be a flake.
Shrug & move on. Their Loss.

Haven't been in quite this situation but they have taken the piss here in expecting you to do lots of the work for them, and are now trying to guilt trip you. Deep breath, open the email and reply to say that you feel it's a great shame they were not able to develop the proposal to the required standard, which it was their responsibility to do, or to take on board your constructive feedback. You think it's unlikely you would be able to work with them from here on but you wish them well. Send and then block their email address. There are lots of chancers around. Don't feel bad.

Deep breath, open the email and reply to say that you feel it's a great shame they were not able to develop the proposal to the required standard, which it was their responsibility to do, or to take on board your constructive feedback. You think it's unlikely you would be able to work with them from here on but you wish them well. Send and then block their email address. There are lots of chancers around. Don't feel bad.

I agree with this.

If you want a bit of moral support, I imagine a couple of us will stick around.

Also - if the person is rude to you, it works in your favour. And archive all their emails and your replies in folder and leave them there, before blocking. A good archive is your back-up if the idiot has a moan to anyone.

Honestly it makes me relieved to be retired. I’m peer reviewing for a journal at the moment and the submission is clearly an unfinished idea bashed out onto a keyboard using as many variations of the same basic (derivative) idea as possible.

Are they male I wonder and you female?

Yep, also older than me even if academically I'm the senior person

Don’t feel bad. You’ve dodged a bullet by letting them drop out at this early stage. Just think how awful if would be if they were actually working with you.

How do you manage aspiring post-doc expectations in the application process, do you feel you can 'dump' them at any point between agreeing to sponsor them and submitting the application if it becomes obvious you are not a good match?

I've just finished advising someone on a post-doc application that has to go through an internal sift before we'll take it further for an institutional application. I know it's unlikely to make it through the sift, but I've given reasonably direct feedback in an encouraging tone.

My first response - I was approached by the candidate - was to say to the applicant that yes, I was happy to work with them, and be put on the application as mentor/supervisor, but that
a) if I put my work and time into this, I expect you to apply through my institution, not take my work & go elsewhere (I've been burned like this )
b) there is a success rate of under 10% and so even getting through the internal sift is no guarantee of award.

So when it doesn't get through the sift (as I expect), I've been clear with the applicant, and I've helped them. No anguish about that.

You've done more than I would for an applicant. We know the standard required; it sounds as though the candidate you're working with doesn't.

Thanks for all the replies and the sanity check - I got myself a bit worked up last night due to the person's multiple e-mails over the last few days!
I suppose what I foud difficult as well is that they vaguely referred to structural issues which are overall true (i.e. such schemes not being particularly friendly to people without institutional affiliations who have to develop proposals in their free time, some PhDs graduating without really knowing what the etiquette is in these applications because no one took the time to explain to them), and being the little complacent and "kind" female academic that I am, I felt it would somehow reflect badly on me if I lined up with "the system" and didn't seek to mitigate these issues.
But really I don't have to, and need to become better at holding the line against such emotional blackmail in the future.

Oh I agree that there are structural issues and that’s why academics like us have worked our backsides off over the years to level the field and create equity around applications, submissions and awards.

That does not equate to female academics creating an environment where rude men continue to win prizes they don’t deserve. He needs to put the work in on his content, like you or I would.

I’m very pleased you feel better about it today. Put that boundary in!

Were you able to put this to rest, @aridapricot ? I hope it went well.

I agree that there may well have been a sexist dynamic in the mix. But I also remember some of your previous posts. You seem a genuinely nice person, but IIRC you have sometimes taken on work others should have done because they pushed back and that threw you. Mostly men, again IIRC.

I am speaking to myself as much as to you here: the retrospective lesson for both of us I see in the saga as you relate it is perhaps to be a bit more conditional in the early stages.

The first request - would you be a willing sponsor in principle? - was actually very large. Too large. Again talking to both of us, for I can also get caught up in the underdog’s cause, I think the proper answer is more tempered: ‘I would be glad to explore specific possibilities with you’. Then give him good feedback but don’t get overly invested and don’t get sucked in to doing his job.

Anyway, I hope things are back on track for you. All the best

Hi @poetryandwine,
Many thanks for checking in. Yes I felt a bit weird for a few days that I had done something wrong but rationally I knew I had not and have been able to accept it.
I talked about this to a close collaborator and they said this person also behaved in a borderline inappropriate way towards them and they know another person with the same experience. So it seems it's not just me!
I agree with you that I have been too quick in the past to take on responsibility and do work for other people, particularly men. But it's improving! Slowly but it's improving, I swear.
In the meanwhile I had a further two requests for postdoc sponsorship (not for a specific deadline, just in the abstract) and I suppose I am more reluctant to say yes, not just because of this particular experience, but because the competition seems so wild and frankly I do think that many (most?) PhD students graduate without the ability to put together a competitive proposal. I was likely the same (by the time I was able to write competitive proposals, the window for BA and Leverhulme postdocs had passed although I was lucky to get a place in a fellowship scheme ran by a university itself), but I do feel there is a general lack of understanding of the standard that is truly needed. But that's another conversation!