Supporting potential PhD - not confident about it

[kualitate]

I'm new to supervising and have been asked to help support a prospective international student with their application for funding from a highly competitive doctoral scheme. The research proposal/idea is interesting and written well enough with the aid of ChatGPT, but the general application is really not great (vague, emotive, informal and not written in a great standard of English). I'm wading through all the supporting documents and there is a lot that needs to be revised/effectively rewritten entirely to make it more professional/sharper and academic - I'm struggling with feedback as there is so much that needs to be done and it's difficult to convey that things need to be written in a certain way. English isn't their first language so I appreciate how hard it is, plus they won't have the cultural capital of knowing how to frame an application for funders here.

Having had friends funded by the same scheme for their PhD, the chances of this student getting the scholarship seem very low - am I wrong for feeling a bit frustrated with the lead supervisor for not being more up-front with the candidate about how competitive the scheme is and how small their chances of getting it are? Or am I just grumpy and have to accept that these things take multiple revisions/edits?

Can you share an example of a past suscessful application ?

If you're going to be on the team but not the lead supervisor, IMO you should be looking at the proposal but the lead supervisor should be doing the bulk of the work on it. How has your role in this been set up?

PhD student here, not an academic, but I am a professional and a senior manager in another career.

As hard as it is, I think you have to be honest here, and quite blunt, unfortunately. You won't do the prospective candidate any favours by either telling them it will be okay with a bit of work, or by spending huge amounts of time yourself to get it up to standard. If they don't get the funding, it will have been a waste of their time preparing the application, and if they do get it after significant input from you, it will be setting them up to fail in their PhD.

I think this should have been done sooner... It's just such a lot of work that needs to be done in time for the deadline and I have a feeling we will end up writing their application for them!!

But they don't deserve the funding if you write it.

That's very true - everyone is meant to be helping out equally, but I somehow seem to have taken a lead hence feeling unsure about it all and questioning whether any if this is normal or a productive use of anyone's time...

As second supervisor, I wouldn’t be giving this application any support. or at most, critical comments on one draft.

the options are

you don’t help, bad student fails to get in, all ok
you don’t help, good student works out the problems for themselves and gets in, all good
you help the student massively and they get in but then fail because they don’t have the right skills -> big problem

The problem isn't that the student is academically weak and their ideas are good - they have research experiences and a small number of publications. They have been given a PhD place and I think would be fine once they start/adapt to studying in the UK like most int. students do. But they just aren't a serious candidate for the highly competitive funding scheme and that's what I'm feeling uncomfortable about in terms of the time/labour to support them. I'm trying to work out if I'm being overly cynical/grumpy and ought to be prioritising their future potential.

Your research office should be able to help - are they aware of the application?

How have you 'somehow taken the lead'? Did the lead supervisor push that, or did you volunteer out of a desire to be helpful and collegiate? Either way, bounce it back to them and say you have only had time to give some brief comments so you'll leave it with them to get it into its final form. It's what a male academic would do.

It is 100% fine not to support students who aren’t competitive for funding.

@DoctorDoctor A mixture of both - I'm new to the role and everyone's so busy so I'm trying to be helpful whilst learning the rope from others - most of the time, everything I see people doing around me seems so instinctively wrong/counter-productive to me... I feel like I'm constantly trying to figure things out by myself and have no idea if what I'm doing is right/wrong (but that's another problem and how I feel about navigating academia more generally!).

I'm really stretched at the minute so will do what I can but then bounce it on - senior colleague has mentioned they'll be working over the break on it along with other things so I wonder if there is the expectation to do the same :( there was talk of supporting student with other applications too if they don't get this - really regretting the whole thing now!

@DoctorDoctor and yes, all the men in the dept have perfected the ability to ignore these emails/requests for help to a tee and focus solely on their own stuff... :(

This is what I find strange - my instincts were that they would be the first port of call for working with/supporting students with drafting these applications and then prospective supervisors provide (a limited amount of) critical feedback

Our research office has nothing to do with PhD students, it’s down to the supervisor to help with funding applications. But I would not be doing this as the second supervisor. And even as the first supervisor, I would not be basically writing the application for the student. You can absolutely say no to this.

A research proposal written by LLM is deplorable.
Are they not articulate and clever enough to write the proposal in their own language, and then get google translate to turn to English, then work with you for minor improvements in the translation.

there is ZERO reason they should have used an LLM and indicates they are clueless about research design. Because LLMs write things that seem like ideas meanwhile AI obviously has no actual ideas much less understanding of valid research methods, just probabilistic ways of combining words based on most of the (mostly not academic) unsuitable text already available on Internet.

I am confused by OP saying both "prospective international student" and "They have been given a PhD place" : which is it? Anyway, this ... "applicant"? doesn't know enough about research design is the major problem here.

I'm assuming the applicant has been offered a place but can't actually take it unless they secure independent funding. This is usually the case in my own dept.

I would not be rewriting any part of such an application - maybe just making comments. I am very often the bearer of bad news when it comes to being realistic about actually securing this kind of highly competitive funding. It's apparently very difficult for students to grasp just what 'highly competitive' really means.

However, I think sometimes supervisors try to help the student get the funding because they want the student to be able to do their PhD with them. The season for this is upon us with most deadlines being Jan. I have a few to assess and a few to give support/feedback/references. I do know what you mean when you say the candidate could perfectly well do a PhD but they just don't have enough points on the scoring system to get funding. Such is life.

Just provide comments - do not actually rewrite anything for them.

Thanks everyone - it's good to hear many people echoing what I thought. The application is just so waffly and not precise enough ('it's been my dream to do a PhD and become a professor since I was a child etc'). Just struggling to convey that it's got to be more professional/competitive/precise and make every single word count. Any thoughts on how to get this across nicely?

There's no chance this student will get the funding so just frustrated that it was even suggested to them to apply in the first place. And yes @Acinonyx2 lead supervisor is very keen to secure funding and work with student hence the pressure.

Then push back - if they are keen let them deal with it. Say you have made comments on how to improve the application and suggest the lead supervisor deals with further feedback. It's unethical for supervisors to do this but I do see it in less intrusive ways - the jostling between supervisors knowing their potential candidates will be ranked by colleagues. Personally, I do the best I can as an assessor without lying but realistically, they need perfect or near perfect scores to have a chance.

I’d be concerned about signing up to supervise a student who can’t put together a passable proposal anyway. PhD supervision is a lot of work even with highly capable students. When students really struggle it can be tortuous for all involved. Funding aside (and I’d say give feedback to the student but don’t get too involved in redrafting) I’d think about whether this is the right first project to supervise anyway. PhD supervision is one of my favourite bits of the job but not to be taken on lightly- you’re signing up for at least 3 years!

Thanks @Posle I am really excited about PhD supervision as I think it will be really rewarding! But also emotionally very taxing based on conversations I've had with my own PhD supervisor abut her experiences so wary of a student who might need a lot of hand-holding...

The proposal is fine, it's the supporting application that is weak - it's a bit like at a job interview when you know someone will be fine once they're in, but they're not able to sell themselves properly/using the right language needed. I appreciate English isn't their first language so it must be really hard.

I wonder if anyone can clarify on the English language requirements for a PhD and how it works in practice? I had international friends during my own PhD who got a lot of support with editing and proof-reading for their thesis, but is the supervisor expected to support with this stuff too?

Sorry OP, but it sounds like your own insecurities supervising this student are the main issue here. If you think they will grow into a strong candidate , and their research proposal is a good idea, what's the problem?

As a PhD graduate who won UKRI funding , I had huge support from my supervisors, both of them, they cheered me on, helped me complete the application and no doubt pushed for me within the university for my name to go forward as a strong candidate.

My supervisors made it VERY CLEAR to have a PLAN B, and I applied for another studentship and an internal department award , my back up plan if I got no funding was to switch part time, part time work and apply again the next year.

You will be fair to the candidate if you support them but make it clear they have a 1 in 8 or whatever the odds are for the funding, and have they got a plan B?

If you believe in 3 or 4 years they can defend a viva and contribute new knowledge , then 100% you should support them, did you complete a PhD? Then you know the applicant stage to the PGR who emerges from a Viva as Doctor is a LONG journey, the finished product is nowhere there at the start.

Either step away or commit to the student, that's your job

Eh? Have you read the same posts as everyone else? The PhD proposal maybe decent, but they clearly need a LOT of handholding in order to be competitive for funding. Nowhere has OP expressed concern about the supervising element.

And they’re not a student - they’re an applicant with an offer.

but they clearly need a LOT of handholding in order to be competitive for funding.

What does that even mean? Its a bloody application form and statements , EVERY PhD funding application is a nightmare. Mine was a million times harder than applying and winning a place for a PhD program, its sort of the point, winning funding is HARD WORK.

If the OP thinks this is too much, she's in for a shock supervising any potential PhD candidate

Nowhere has OP expressed concern about the supervising element.

When one decides to take on a student helping with funding applications is part of the supervising element. If she's struggling with this, what's going to happen when she has a stressed out student getting ready to upgrade ? Or prepping for their VIva?? Its entirely normal and a huge responsibility.

To me, it sounds the OP is anxious about taking on her first student , its a massive learning curve, and she needs to share her concerns with the main supervisor who sounds like they aren't pulling their weight, she also needs to contact her Grad School for any training or reaching out to senior colleagues for support, they will all understand she's anxious as her first supervisor role.

As I said, she needs to either commit or step away if she can't handle it. Its one of the reasons I ensured both my supervisors were very senior , I saw in cohort fellow PGR's with supervisors in their first gig, they were AWFUL.