Researching without a permanent uni position

[jmlondonwo]

Is this even possible?

I'm on rolling short-term contracts at the minute (2yrs post-doc). Been looking at grant applications this week and been reminded that you only seem to be able to lead on them if you have a permanent position at a recognised institution. With the state of the sector at the minute, that feels impossible.

Is this right? If so, do I need to cut my losses now and move on into another sector?

There are fellowships that specifically require you not to have a permanent position. Leverhulme might be one of them.

2 years post doc you need support from someone more senior. I mean in career terms not necessarily grant-wise. There are jobs out there but you need to be the candidate people are championing. So yes, write grants but it may be time better spent if you work with someone more senior to be named on a bigger grant, or are the name on everyone's tongues if a lecturer post comes up etc etc.

Thank you for replying.

I'm working directly with a professor, who has said he will be naming me on grants. I'm concerned though that this will ultimately be a dead-end, since I'll never get to be lead. Are you saying though that even being named is worth it in terms of applying for a permanent role?

I probably need to talk directly to the professor about my goals: my situation is quite unique (have previously worked in industry and have some restrictions on my mobility) so I feel a bit like I'm coming at it all sideways...

Well if you are driven a major post doc role then while it's not permanent it gives you 2-3 years to apply for your own grants, apply for lecturing roles etc. if you're named as co-i then it's easier to be p-i next time.

But I wouldn't put all your eggs in that male professor basket.

Oh and don't sit back and assume he is naming you on them. You should be part of the grant writing team, have access to the application docs and be editing them with the team. Otherwise your name will literally be 'mentioned' somewhere as a possible RA, not as an applicant.

I think you need to educate yourself on this. To be very frank (but I hope frankness assists you) I'm surprised you've got to a postdoc point and don't really know how it works. So I hope what I can explain will help you.

You need to look at your relevant UKRI research council. I'm in the humanities so I look at the AHRC - they do offer the opportunity to apply for a variety of types of research grants without a permanent post, but would require the sponsoring university/research organisation to guarantee that they'll employ you, picking up 100% of your salary (UKRI generally only funds 80% of the full economic costing - FEC). Check with the research council for your discipline.

You should also look at EU funding via the European Research Council, specifically at the Marie Skłodowska Curie Action Fellowships (MSCA) and the Starter grants, run via the ERC. The process is cumbersome but if you're successful, your career is pretty much set. You'll be your own PI in a Starter grant, while you'l have a PI in a Marie Curie Fellowship - thees require mobility however, so you'd need to move countries.

But overall, you should have a mentor beyond your postdoc supervisor. You should have a sit down eery 6 months or so to look at your career development (I do this formally every 3 months with my post-docs and I meet with my Marie Curie postdoc every month) - the Research Concordat requires that your career is developed even while working on another's project. Find someone you can talk to informally, or make a formal appointment to meet your department's Director of Research.

You sound a bit passive - you can't be passive if you want a research career. You need to be developing your own project ideas and research questions .

But if your current PI is interested in writing you in to his next project, see how that works - as Co-I or as a further post-doc? If the latter, ask about having a work package within the project that is your responsibility, and that you can publish from.

Some of this wll be discipline specific, but I hope this gives you an outline.

At your stage you need to be looking at fellowships, not grants. These do not need a permanent post as they pay your salary, and you can move them to whichever university you like. Be careful though as being named on a grant as coI might preclude you from some of them in the future.

Good points @bge

Thanks again.

I'm not passive: my CV is filling up well with publications (journals, research notes and even a small book), conferences etc., all of which I've been doing outside of my paid role.

But yes, I haven't actively tackled this topic with my Prof. I feel a little silly doing so: this is my second career and I feel like time is against me.

I am also very limited in terms of mobility (I have young children and moving is not an option). But I'd like to think that I'm good at what I do and I would like to keep doing it.

I'll look at the fellowships but with my limitations I'm not sure I've got a chance.

However I will message my Prof to ask for a formal meeting with him to discuss my progress. If he's not going to support me adequately then I need to know now so I can plan a move back into industry or whatever.

Don't phrase it like that "a formal meeting to discuss by progress" sounds like you are looking for a performance review.

Say you'd really value his guidance on next steps. Don't be scared or meek about this. Ask outright what opportunities he has, how definite they are, what other teams he knows of who might be hiring etc.

said he will be naming me on grants. I'm concerned though that this will ultimately be a dead-end,

What does "dead end" mean to you, OP?
I imagine you mean top of salary scale and no further job role promotions or salary increases feasible (beyond annual increments for the same salary grade). So continuing on forever at that salary grade & responsibility level and feeling very unsatisfied about it. But I don't like to assume things. What did you mean by "dead end" ?

Yes - by dead end I mean pretty much that. Stuck at this level without ever moving to the point where I can lead and direct. Salary isn't important other than as a marker of my value: it's more about responsibility (I've led teams very successfully before...) and feeling like I'm contributing and making a difference to the world through what I do. And able to use all my abilities and skills to their full potential: I feel like my wings will be permanently clipped if I don't move into something more.

Clearly I need to take the confidence I have here into my real-life conversations with him! Don't really know what's stopping me other than the fear of looking like a fool.

Agree. The one, single, benefit of fixed term contracts is that it is clear that you won’t be staying forever so there is no harm with asking for help with future career options

Don't phrase it like that "a formal meeting to discuss by progress" sounds like you are looking for a performance review.

Also agree with @Mellownellow - phrase it as a chat about your career development, and next steps, and possibilities beyond the end of your current contract.

By passive, I mean - you need to do some research <grin> on likely next steps in your particular discipline & field within it. That's a professional responsibility, really, if you do want to progress. I'm honestly a bit surprised that you're not aware of the likely structure of a career (but then I'm not your Director of Research - I do a lot of this sort of developmental work in my own department)

In my field, the next steps would be about applying for a fixed-term and/or permanent lectureship, but mobility is generally required in that you have to move where the job is. You'll need to think about whether you can move your family, or commute (either each day or staying over 2 days a week or whatever). A permanent post means you can apply to relevant research councils as Co-I or PI. Seek out grant schemes which cater for someone at your career stage - post-doc transitioning to leading a team. Have you done any teaching? It can be a great way of learning about the full professional requirements of academia.

If you don't want to teach, then you need to be looking at various Fellowships, where you pitch to lead your own research project or longer term contracts working on other people's projects, but really, there's very little career structure to those. A 5 year contract might be the most security you can look at; if you're written in to a grant - either as a postdoc research fellow or Co-I, then you should try to negotiate a more senior title and/or salary, but if you're only 2 years post-doc then that's fairly unlikely frankly. An academic career is a long marathon.

You also could develop a network of peers - potential & actual collaborators, people who may have posts, conferences, etc etc. You can meet up at conferences and so on, and they can be really helpful in just learning how to navigate academia. A good network is one of the essential parachutes in academic life - for fun & support, as much as opportunities.

It's great (and essential) you've been building your CV, but that won't help if you're not proactive about next steps.

Clearly I need to take the confidence I have here into my real-life conversations with him! Don't really know what's stopping me other than the fear of looking like a fool.

I would also advise you not to limit asking about this to your PI. Talk to other leaders in your unit/department - HoD, DoR, etc etc. Get to know people in your field outside your institution. Network, to find sympatico people, whom you'll learn from, and collaborate with.

Feeling like I'm contributing and making a difference to the world

Whatever happens, I want to recommend that you find value in small as well as "big" contributions to making the world a better place. Often it's not in one's control how much benefit a person can create. You don't want to get depressed by thinking you under-achieved.

what field are you in?

in general, if you want a permanent position at a university, you need to be applying for lectureships. That gives you a long term position where you can run your own research group, apply for grants as PI, supervise PhD students etc.

Fellowships are the next best option - they give you more research time (no teaching) but less security because they only last 5 or so years. In some places, a fellowship can lead to a guaranteed lectureship at the end, but that is rare.

in different fields / subfields, there will be big variation in the number of lectureships and fellowships available. So do talk to your PI about what the options are in your field.

and do look for mentorship within your university - if you can sign up for a mentor outside your lab and get independent input on career development, that can be very useful.

Fellowships are the next best option - they give you more research time (no teaching) but less security because they only last 5 or so years. In some places, a fellowship can lead to a guaranteed lectureship at the end, but that is rare.

This is field dependent. There are some fields where (for the last decade or so) most people who have got lectureships in the UK have done so via 'conversion' of a 5+ year fellowship, rather than via open adverts.

I'm in a similar situation op. Fellowships seems to be the only way to lead on research without a permanent post however many schemes have a restriction on post-PhD research experience (e.g Leverhulme - you can apply within 4 years of your doctorate). Lectureships give you more options but like fellowships these are difficult to get, at least in social sciences. My suggestion is to think about how your name on this new grant will be a step up from your previous role (perhaps a more senior title, some line management/teaching, some single-authored publications??). It's a difficult landscape at the moment and having a back up plan (pathway out of academia/into industry) is always a good option.

Yes - almost all universities will convert a five year scientific fellowship to a lectureship (written in advance). For scientists at most prestigious universities this is the only way to get a permanent job - there are almost never open calls for jobs

And in the humanities - and often in the social sciences - this rarely, if ever happens.

The Leverhulme Early Career Fellowship is supposed to lead to a permanent post, but I've not seen this happen.

Some institutions won't even host Leverhulme ECFs in the current financial climate, as Leverhulme only fund half of the postdoc's salary.

Yes @GCAcademic we have an internal competition & only put in 2 or 3 - and even then, our Faculty budget couldn't stand the cost if all applicants were awarded the funding!

my top-10 uni won't guarantee that any fellowship converts to a lectureship and appoints lectureship roles separately to fellowships. I know many 'fellows' forced to move on at the end of their funding.

so it is very variable between universities and disciplines.