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University staff common room

This board is for university-based professionals. Find discussions about A Levels and universities on our Further education forum.

Academic article arguing we should all join UCU because it's the best way to save HE.

83 replies

DanceAppleGCMum · 28/02/2025 07:50

NC but long-time poster.

A friend sent me this article yesterday and we had a good chat about it: onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-4446.13200

Knowing there's some very mixed views on UCU on MN, I was wondering what academic MNers made of this article?

I'm in a very pro-UCU department so a sensible, critical conversation about UCU isn't possible unfortunately.

(Edited to actually add a link)

OP posts:
Patterncarmen · 04/03/2025 10:55

Chrysanthemum5 · 04/03/2025 10:50

@Patterncarmen I think you don't understand how toxic UCU has become in some organisations. It's not just that they have a focus on gender etc it's that they actively persecute union members who don't share that view. Believe me I am a strong supporter of unions as a concept but I saw so many colleagues bullied and threatened by UCU that I left. Female colleagues who were scared to go to their office incase they were attacked; who were given rape alarms by Security because UCU local branch published their details and encouraged attacks.

University staff need a union but UCU is not it

I worked in UCU for many years, and recently retired. I never saw anything like this. Our branch did not persecute people or threaten them. When we were on strike, and we saw union members cross the pickets, the law at the time said we could not say anything. And we didn’t.

I also saw no such publicity on UCU members doxxing others. Do you have a link to any documentation on this?

Chrysanthemum5 · 04/03/2025 11:08

Your branch didn't do that but my branch did because it was infiltrated by people who felt that was ok

And there is no documentation because the people targeted were not supported by senior university leadership or their Schools so they either left or they've just stopped talking about their (perfectly legal) views

DrUptonsGardenGnome · 04/03/2025 12:34

Really @Patterncarmen ! I also have no interest in joining a right-wing political party. Does that prevent me from observing and offering my thoughts thereon?

If UCU wants to attract more members, it needs to work out what would make it (more) attractive, and then do it. If I may proffer a view, I don't see that happening from where I am.

Patterncarmen · 04/03/2025 12:51

Chrysanthemum5 · 04/03/2025 11:08

Your branch didn't do that but my branch did because it was infiltrated by people who felt that was ok

And there is no documentation because the people targeted were not supported by senior university leadership or their Schools so they either left or they've just stopped talking about their (perfectly legal) views

Oh, Ok. You have no documentation, yet make assertions something happened. Would you accept an essay from a student that said...this occurred, yet, I cannot provide a shred of evidence? I hope not.

Patterncarmen · 04/03/2025 13:01

DrUptonsGardenGnome · 04/03/2025 12:34

Really @Patterncarmen ! I also have no interest in joining a right-wing political party. Does that prevent me from observing and offering my thoughts thereon?

If UCU wants to attract more members, it needs to work out what would make it (more) attractive, and then do it. If I may proffer a view, I don't see that happening from where I am.

But if you are against joining any organisation that has collective action or teams, your opinion about all unions (and most workplaces, and human groupings) will be negative. So, in that sense, no union will be attractive to you. You can carry around a banner that says Unions are bad if you want, I'm not stopping you.

But then if you have to fight your own battles and get exploited, that is the bed you lie in.

The stupid thing about it is most union members, present or former, will have no idea that there is continuing professional development where you can learn, for free, about employment law, or assertion, and protect yourself. But it takes a team of people, like myself, to have helped put these courses together. But, well, teamwork is bad in your view, so guess that benefit isn't available to you and you'll need to hire a solicitor if something happens or get overworked. You are perfectly free to do so. Good luck

Chrysanthemum5 · 04/03/2025 14:01

Im not writing an essay and the suffering of other people is not something I need to evidence to you. I know it happened because I saw it.

UCU is a shit union run by people who don't know the first thing about how to be effective. I come from a family with a strong union involvement and it was obvious from day one- that the 4 fights action would never work.

murmuration · 04/03/2025 14:37

Well, whilst I may not agree with all of that article, clearly some changes to university structure might be a good thing—such as more faculty governance. If SMT were colleagues promoted to those levels, rather than line managers hired from outside (some who have business experience, but very little experience running a university), there would not be so much an us vs them mentality.

I think I'm still struggling with how other Universities do thing. Are all SMT really hired in from outside most places? Even our 'top person' who is hired in from outside teaches. (Interestingly, middle level often get complete buy-out, but top level generally teaches again, if usually just one class a year... lower level is fractional so still a lot of teaching)

Chrysanthemum5 · 04/03/2025 14:55

I think the issue with promoting colleagues to SLT is that sometime they just don't have the skills. Universities are huge organisations and they do need leaders who know how to effectively run them

PicturePlace · 04/03/2025 19:09

Not at all. Universities are now classified as businesses.

You are demonstrably incorrect. Universities are charities, legally. You have misunderstood. There are no financial shareholders and no dividends. Wages of all university workers are indeed paid from the university budget, which is why we hope for a surplus, and no redundancies.

DrUptonsGardenGnome · 04/03/2025 20:58

Responding to this from @Patterncarmen

"But if you are against joining any organisation that has collective action or teams, your opinion about all unions (and most workplaces, and human groupings) will be negative."

No that's not right - I think unions are valuable in some industries and for some workers. But not for me, and especially not in this role. My negative view of UCU is based on what I've seen over the past eight years or so, not a predetermined opinion based on my own views of the appropriateness of a union for academics.

DanceAppleGCMum · 05/03/2025 08:21

I agree that unions don't work in academia because there isn't a collective experience around which to organise. Our work looks so different across different disciplines.

And that lack of a collective was made so much worse when UCU opened up (and started to actively encourage) PhD students to join. It also pushed UCU further into a student politics model.

Even if one opted for union membership just for personal insurance, UCU isn't a good prospect. There are a very small number of very vocal people who set the agenda and make dissent and pushback (of the kind mentioned upthread) very challenging. If you don't fall into the groupthink, you're at risk and especially so if you run up against problems at work related to your "incorrect" opinions.

For me, the article doesn't engage with any of this. It assumes academics not in the union are (at best) apathetic or (at worst) ruthless capitalists. For me, the reality is that I was in the union many years ago and I have thought long and hard about re-joining but decided against it. The article doesn't acknowledge people in that position because that would mean some critical engagement with UCU's position and behaviour.

OP posts:
murmuration · 05/03/2025 15:58

Chrysanthemum5 · 04/03/2025 14:55

I think the issue with promoting colleagues to SLT is that sometime they just don't have the skills. Universities are huge organisations and they do need leaders who know how to effectively run them

Ah, good point - showing my bias from a very small Uni, which is still quite a large organisation. I can see how in large (or even medium) Unis it could outstrip capability of standard academics.

Patterncarmen · 05/03/2025 22:06

PicturePlace · 04/03/2025 19:09

Not at all. Universities are now classified as businesses.

You are demonstrably incorrect. Universities are charities, legally. You have misunderstood. There are no financial shareholders and no dividends. Wages of all university workers are indeed paid from the university budget, which is why we hope for a surplus, and no redundancies.

All public universities, in effect, have been legally established as independent corporations. The precise terms in which this independence is expressed differ – royal charters, statute-led instruments and articles of government, companies limited by guarantee.

They are effectively businesses. unless you think WONKHe is wrong.
https://wonkhe.com/blogs/higher-education-is-big-business/

Higher education is big business

Universities are now competing over a record amount of competitive revenue, making them some of the biggest businesses in the UK. It's the most significant change to the sector's operating context for decades. Are they ready?

https://wonkhe.com/blogs/higher-education-is-big-business/

Patterncarmen · 05/03/2025 22:08

DrUptonsGardenGnome · 04/03/2025 20:58

Responding to this from @Patterncarmen

"But if you are against joining any organisation that has collective action or teams, your opinion about all unions (and most workplaces, and human groupings) will be negative."

No that's not right - I think unions are valuable in some industries and for some workers. But not for me, and especially not in this role. My negative view of UCU is based on what I've seen over the past eight years or so, not a predetermined opinion based on my own views of the appropriateness of a union for academics.

No that's not right - I think unions are valuable in some industries and for some workers. But not for me, and especially not in this role.

So in your role, a union doesn’t work for you. You won’t join one or consider it. So why are you commenting on unions for universities and their effectiveness. You have automatically rejected them.

Patterncarmen · 05/03/2025 22:20

DanceAppleGCMum · 05/03/2025 08:21

I agree that unions don't work in academia because there isn't a collective experience around which to organise. Our work looks so different across different disciplines.

And that lack of a collective was made so much worse when UCU opened up (and started to actively encourage) PhD students to join. It also pushed UCU further into a student politics model.

Even if one opted for union membership just for personal insurance, UCU isn't a good prospect. There are a very small number of very vocal people who set the agenda and make dissent and pushback (of the kind mentioned upthread) very challenging. If you don't fall into the groupthink, you're at risk and especially so if you run up against problems at work related to your "incorrect" opinions.

For me, the article doesn't engage with any of this. It assumes academics not in the union are (at best) apathetic or (at worst) ruthless capitalists. For me, the reality is that I was in the union many years ago and I have thought long and hard about re-joining but decided against it. The article doesn't acknowledge people in that position because that would mean some critical engagement with UCU's position and behaviour.

How active were you in the union?

Again, silence=consent. The union is not an abstract entity outside of you. If you are a member, you are the union. If you are silent, you consent to its policies.

As I said upthread, I don’t agree with everything that article said either. I didn’t particularly love the UCU left politics. But I expressed my views and worked with what we had, and we accomplished things locally. Changed the work load model, prevented redundancies, had a colleague keep her job after some underhanded business regarding her maternity leave.

And, if the faculty are too individualistic to band together to protect their jobs and their wages, their working life suffers. They are paid less, overworked, and more people have precarious contracts.

I’m also curious about the hostility to PhD students having membership. I mean, we have them teach classes, mark, etc., on small stipends. Why are you threatened by giving them a voice? Is it that you don’t want to associate with your students or treat them as equals?

Patterncarmen · 05/03/2025 22:23

murmuration · 05/03/2025 15:58

Ah, good point - showing my bias from a very small Uni, which is still quite a large organisation. I can see how in large (or even medium) Unis it could outstrip capability of standard academics.

Well, do you think university SMT’s are super effective…I mean HE is in a really healthy state right now?

There are faculty who are not standard academics who are or could be excellent administrators, and having faculty in roles means there is less of a polarity between faculty and SMT.

We had as the head of HR a guy who was expert at making people redundant in a corporation. I mean, he had business experience beyond that of a standard academic, but I wouldn’t classify that experience as desirable. He had never had a post in a university before.

Patterncarmen · 05/03/2025 22:26

Chrysanthemum5 · 04/03/2025 14:01

Im not writing an essay and the suffering of other people is not something I need to evidence to you. I know it happened because I saw it.

UCU is a shit union run by people who don't know the first thing about how to be effective. I come from a family with a strong union involvement and it was obvious from day one- that the 4 fights action would never work.

Oh, OK. You don’t have evidence then.

Patterncarmen · 06/03/2025 00:31

Unions both necessitate and foster increased class consciousness—the recognition that workers and management have fundamentally different interests. This awareness highlights that all parties primarily seek to extract money from the organization, transforming distributional conflicts into explicit confrontations.

From what I can see on this thread, academics struggle with this framing. They view their profession as intrinsically valuable, motivated by education and research rather than primarily by income. This perspective also involves elements of vocational reverence and self-sacrifice (and can of course lead to exploitation). Unionization effectively transforms the institution from being the central identity and purpose for staff into a contested economic marketplace.

And, as academics seem to only be vaguely aware of themselves as "workers," the idea that the PhD students saw themselves as workers and wanted to join UCU came as a bit of a shock. So, the way to deal with the discomfort of seeing their job as economic is to say that PhD students in the UCU are only capable of student politics. Seeing your doctoral student in your union also messes with the very hierarchical nature of academic life and the idea of "paying your dues." It may also be discomfort with the reality that young people have been given a pretty raw deal economically comparied to their older counterparts.

In the UK, this academic mission that academics believe in has already been abandoned. University Vice Chancellors have evolved from senior academics into businesspeople with academic backgrounds (or sometimes not even that). They openly treat universities as profit-seeking enterprises targeting student fees, grants, and commercial ventures. While paying themselves substantial salaries and benefits, they actively suppress non-management compensation, unlike the previously modest salary differences. Some have called this the enshittification of the sector.

The concept of UK universities as mission-driven centers of learning effectively ended approximately 15 years ago, following a gradual decline over the preceding 30+ years. I don't think the larger public sees academe as intrinsically valuable anymore--education is now only seen as relevant when vocational. Education is not important, just the diploma and wage it will provide.

Academics seem to resist acknowledging this reality, finding it easier to criticize unions like UCU than participate meaningfully. Despite imperfections in UCU which I will absolutely acknowledge, unions provide leverage, but only if people participate.

But, well, union participation is often tedious, thankless, and consumes personal time—similar to why even those concerned about political issues rarely take concrete action through campaigning or petitions.

I'll also acknowledge that beyond common concerns about retaliation and membership dues, academic unions face unique challenges. The widely varying workloads and responsibilities across academic positions make standardized representation difficult. Additionally, since unionization benefits some more than others, those who might gain less have little personal incentive to participate.
This ultimately reflects individualism at work in academic settings which I discussed upthread.

I thus think HE in the UK is pretty doomed and will probably implode. Unless there is market demand for a specialism that is industry related, the permanent academic post will go the way of the dodo. Heck, a lot of academics don't even have the job security of primary or secondary school teachers, who last I saw, did get a 5.5% pay rise in September. Junior doctors did, rail company workers did, but not the academics. And that is not just down to UCU (see above). It is an easy cat to kick...

PicturePlace · 06/03/2025 02:55

All public universities, in effect, have been legally established as independent corporations. The precise terms in which this independence is expressed differ – royal charters, statute-led instruments and articles of government, companies limited by guarantee.

Yes, correct. Lots of charities are corporations. You're not understanding the difference between a business and a charity. Namely, that a business exists to make a profit, which serves stakeholders. A charity, by law, cannot serve this purpose. They are obliged instead to try to return a surplus (i.e. work within a budget), with any surplus being reinvested into the university. It is a huge difference.

The WONKHE article is great, and they are using "business" in a different sense - i.e. "to create business". We are big bodies, creating a lot of income for the UK. In particular, the article is focussing on how government changes have made universities compete with each other for funding (student numbers and research grants), and so some can go under without help from the gov. This is sadly true also of charities.

I think you are not grasping the basic difference her between a business and a charity. Universities are run "like businesses" in the sense that they must try to return a surplus. So are County Councils and NHS Trusts.

PicturePlace · 06/03/2025 02:58

Well, do you think university SMT’s are super effective…I mean HE is in a really healthy state right now?

That's really unfair, it is an impossible model in the last few years.

Patterncarmen · 06/03/2025 06:20

PicturePlace · 06/03/2025 02:55

All public universities, in effect, have been legally established as independent corporations. The precise terms in which this independence is expressed differ – royal charters, statute-led instruments and articles of government, companies limited by guarantee.

Yes, correct. Lots of charities are corporations. You're not understanding the difference between a business and a charity. Namely, that a business exists to make a profit, which serves stakeholders. A charity, by law, cannot serve this purpose. They are obliged instead to try to return a surplus (i.e. work within a budget), with any surplus being reinvested into the university. It is a huge difference.

The WONKHE article is great, and they are using "business" in a different sense - i.e. "to create business". We are big bodies, creating a lot of income for the UK. In particular, the article is focussing on how government changes have made universities compete with each other for funding (student numbers and research grants), and so some can go under without help from the gov. This is sadly true also of charities.

I think you are not grasping the basic difference her between a business and a charity. Universities are run "like businesses" in the sense that they must try to return a surplus. So are County Councils and NHS Trusts.

I understand fine. I think you are using semantics. I serve on committees for charity and was a trustee. Students are now seen as consumers. Universities are run for profits. The latter two points are absolutely true.

Patterncarmen · 06/03/2025 06:26

PicturePlace · 06/03/2025 02:58

Well, do you think university SMT’s are super effective…I mean HE is in a really healthy state right now?

That's really unfair, it is an impossible model in the last few years.

How is it unfair? VC’s are paid loads of money to run and advocate for universities. Where were they when the universities were being attacked? Why weren’t they lobbying the government when this impossible model was being created? A lot of them are perfectly content to sell the faculty down the river to preserve their positions. How many VC and SMT do you see being made redundant? I would venture it is rare.

Again, silent=consent. If you don’t speak up, you make the bed you lie in. And people here have bought the idea that only business people can run universities and that it is impossible for an academic to have the capacity to do so. Fell for it Hook, line, sinker. Our best VC was a former academic. When they were replaced by a so-called experienced businessman, the university started falling apart.

PicturePlace · 06/03/2025 06:47

Students are now seen as consumers. Universities are run for profits. The latter two points are absolutely true.

Yes, students are seem as consumers. We are providing an expensive service.

Universities are not run for profit, that would be illegal. There are no profits. How can you still not understand that? Their task is to try to stick to budget and to return a surplus, which is then - by law - reinvested into the university.

PicturePlace · 06/03/2025 06:50

VC’s are paid loads of money to run and advocate for universities. Where were they when the universities were being attacked? Why weren’t they lobbying the government when this impossible model was being created?

They absolutely were. Where have you been? Take a look at what UUK do, read WONKHE. You sound spectacularly uninformed.

parietal · 06/03/2025 07:15

The idea that academics should manage the university is a tricky one. Most academics aren't trained in management and aren't motivated by it and sometimes just don't want to bother.

Management is difficult- a uni near me was managed into the ground by a lovely well meaning academic (we shared an office at PhD level. She was lovely but didn't manage things well).

The ideal is to find academics who are also good at management. And to train and support them to get better. But that is hard.

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