PhD proof reading - is this allowed?

[steppemum]

Sorry, I am sneaking on to this board to ask a question.
I know someone just finishing up her PhD. I want to keep it vague as it is quite a niche subject. It is not a science as such, but her PhD is based on a series of lab tests comparing the efficacy of a method for something.

I don't know her well, I am close to her relative. We have a mutual friend who is a retired proofreader/editor. Let's call her MrsProof. MrsProof has been asked to proof read the PhD. Fine, no problem, she is good at it and likes to help.

I bumped into MrProof yesterday. I inquired about MrsProof and he told me that she was having loads of problems with this proof read.
"there are whole paragraphs which have no punctuation, not even a full stop or a comma and they don't make any sense. MrsProof is having to research the topic on google to make sense of what she is reading and then try and make sense of the paper she's editing."

That sounds to me like way more than proof reading. It sounds as if it is crossing over into re-writing. I would have thought that if you can't write a coherent paragraph then you shouldn't be passing your PhD?

Am I over-reacting? I know it is none of my business. But just seems a but much?

I think you're probably overreacting. In my institution, non-native English speakers are actively encouraged to use a professional editor for this reason when writing up a PhD. This seems within the spirit of that (whether student is a native English speaker or not).

I think if the proof reader has no idea on the subject then some things won't make sense to her and she would have to look it up. It's a PhD so likely to be somewhat technical and as you rightly stated quite niche.

In terms of punctuation that is what feedback is for. She doesn't have to rewrite it you ard making an assumption. Unsure why you think she should have to rewrite it.

Also you seem a little over invested OP.

Totally normal. Most unis have a proof reading facility for long form academic writing but this person is probably getting mates rated.

*rates

I'm assuming the PhD person you know is happy for the dh of the proof reader she has employed to chat about how crap her written work is to all and sundry?

I have proofread for my husband in his scientific field. I'm not a degree+ level scientist so Google is my friend to work out what is wrong, what is "jargon" and what is just unfamiliar to me.

My proofing comments for a "marketing" article are very different to if I proof read an essay...

Normal with non native English speakers. I think if I'd done my PhD in Spanish or German I'd have hoped for similar support.

I'm a professional editor. The proofreader, Mrs Proof, should check with the student's supervisor that proofreading is allowed. There are strict rules around what a proofreader can and can't do to a thesis/dissertation, and each Uni has its own rules.

You could also get hold of a copy of the CIEP's guide to working with students: www.ciep.uk/resources/guides/#TD

Sounds like the proofreader is massively overstepping what they should do.

The student should ask a qualified proofreader to work with them.

I used to be a proof reader and editor of medical journals and this was common practice. Someone can be an expert in their field but not be able to write for toffee and it's important to check your amends won't change the meaning of what they're communicating.

Also an editor and agree with all of this. There are strict guidelines for PhD theses. Sounds like she's moving into editing territory - could be problematic.

This is my feeling too.
But others seem to think it is normal?

Anyway, I am not going to do anything, I was just surprised that this was allowed and wondered about it.
As I said in OP it is none of my business really and I am certainly not planning on doing anything.
It was more my curiosity if this was allowed.
It still seems to me that you should be able to write coherently.

Mrs Proof is editing not proofreading. It sounds quite normal, but she should be adhering to guidelines as to which corrections are permitted.
If she is revising the content then that's almost certainly not acceptable.

It is quite possible that the text is not to a proofreader/editor's standard, and if I were MrsProof, I'd probably bite my tongue, but some people might comments, and it may be that MrProof is a bit of a transmitter.

I usually work with engineers, and their minds work in a different way to mine. Most engineers do no write correct and coherent prose.

I've proofread various theses for friends who don't speak English as their first language. Quite a few universities have a proof reading policy so if there's one, Mrs Proof should be following it.

Native English speaker here writing a PhD in a second language. My proof reader is a native speaker (obviously). She corrects grammar, punctuation (minimal though; the odd missed comma etc), word order (so it sounds less foreign-person and more idiomatic). If something is unclear (do I mean A or B?) she asks me to rewrite the sentence. Ditto a concept she doesn’t understand: can I explain it to her? Any “rewriting” by her is for linguistic sense only (eg she’ll turn a positive statement into a negative one: means the same but works better in the language in question-sounds odd but works in practice!).

There are specialist academic editors and proofreaders who know exactly how far they can go in terms of editorial changes, and maybe even have some degree of expertise in certain subjects.

It's always wise to use one of these if your department allows it, and if you can afford it (they can be very expensive, much more so than generalist copy-editors).

I used to proofread scientific documents professionally. In this sort of case I would highlight the issue and discuss how it could be improved but not rewrite it for them; not least because if I wasn't intimately familiar with the topic there was a risk I could change the meaning in unintended ways.

The first step should be that Mrs Proof stops talking about the 'hassle' of her work to others.