Should I leave academia?

[shrodingersvaccine]

Hello,

I'll try to be quick. Graduated my PhD 5 years ago (STEM, bioengineering), postdoccing since then. Decent amount of output (1 year in one lab, 4 years in another, patent, 6/7 papers, 3 grants for 500k total). Running my own teams now across 3 projects, barely ever deal with my PI unless he wants to write a grant together, have my own students and postdocs etc.

BUT

Still on a temp contract, just keep being extended. Current institution 'may' have a perm contract for me 'in a few years' and 'may' let me apply for an early career grant next year (last year I can) 'if it aligns with institute needs'.

Applied for 3 Assistant Professor roles in the UK as I want to move back home, and every time someone has apparently slightly pipped me to the post - with a 'better funding CV, 3yr postdoc fellowship' etc. But I am a good researcher, working on independent, bleeding edge projects in my field. A good academic, teaching, doing outreach etc. My CV ticks honestly, all the boxes except a big postdoctoral fellowship - just never managed to get one (and no big name, multiauthor nature papers or trendy subject to help swing it).

I did my PhD a bit later as I worked first in the NHS. I'm now 36, and with these recent rejections... should I just cut my losses and leave academia now? Am I just never going to make it? Let's face it, the pay is crap, I work my arse off and the whole funding/publication landscape is just fucked isn't it?

But I love my research. When do you know how to quit, and what could I possibly do instead?! I've no idea what else I'm qualified for and am unwilling to go back to being a jobbing lab scientist in industry for example.

Any input is very welcome, as I am lost and a bit teary about it this week!

Thanks

Gosh that is not quick at all, apologies if you made it through that!

Have you applied for postdoc fellowships in the Uk?

the easier route for you, as it was for me in a similar field, is to write an app in collaboration with a department you would want to join. Then you get input from a big cheese as your sponsor. You could feasibly do FLF, MRC or wellcome fellowships. There is no time limit.

as part of the deal with your department negotiate a proleptic lectureship so you are taken on if you win a fellowship, with a permanent job when it ends. This is normal and what I got. Oxford and Cambridge won’t do this and ucl are funny about them but almost all other places will.

Could you move into the private sector? Pharma, a start up? Somewhere on the life science corridor?

Isn't that just the life though - you're still only 5 years postdoc. Aren't 8+ years the usual length of time to secure a permanent post. Though appreciate as you're older this is more important than if you'd done the PhD soon after you'd graduated!

I'm not sure what you want, OP, that you don't have now. I'm going to guess.

You want "career progression.", which means ...
You want status (of being Assoc Prof not an RA and maybe progressing to be a Prof, or some other job titles that comes with more salary, too)
You want a permanent contract.
You want to be a PI.
&
You want to live & work in UK (where do you live & work now?)
you want a job you love

if you leave academia, how can you get all those things more easily than the path you have tried so far : is that what you're asking?

I think that job you love is something that you can't guarantee, so I'd hope for best on that one not try to engineer it. If you shared your skillset here there is high chance someone could suggest other career paths to you.

One thing I found, OP, is that most advice I got about job searching when I was Postdoc came from high-flying PIs who suggested things like "call up Universities in towns you want to move to and they may offer you a job" (like they did for him...) Um, no. Not going to work for me.

Anyway, I see that you've applied for 3 academic positions. Your record looks way better than mine at that stage :) but I doubt very many people at all are at the 'phone up Universities' level.

What me and my friends did was some stats: at that time there were ~200 applicants for any post in our field (we asked these same high-flying PIs this, and they didn't seem to see the disconnect between that answer and their advice...). So we figured (A) we're in the top half and (B) that means we should apply to ~100 jobs to get one. I didn't quite get to 100 but close. I did get 11 interviews and 1 offer, so I was probably higher than the top half.

So, if you really want to give academic one last go, I suggest making a concerted effort and apply extensively. If you want to get into the UK, it will be a smaller pool - most of my applications were in the US, but 4 in Canada, and something in the teens in the UK, and a handful in the rest of the world combined. This was literally every permanent post I matched (or somewhat matched) in the world, over the course of 4 months of checking for new job ads nearly every day.

I'd say giving up after 3 rejections is too soon if you are keen on academia and just leaving becasue of that (not because of the hell that is academia... but there are other threads on that).

As someone above mentions, there is also the sponsored fellowship route - there are a number of random fellowships, not just the big independent ones, and if you find someone cognate in a department you are interested in, you may able to squeeze in that way. And either get to stay there, or jump elsewhere with the fellowship tick box now under your belt.

Hello! Thank you all for taking the time to respond. In answer to questions...

I think what I want is

1. the security of a perm contract (and a higher wage)
2. to work on my research (which is cool stuff I think!)
3. to be in the UK - I'm currently in the EU

I definitely don't think 8 years is the norm for a postdoc, that would be considered far too long in my field :/ but that's definitely field specific.

I am applying for fellowships in the UK but I'm getting directly contradictory feedback from reviewers and it's really confusing. In one ranking I was simultaneously too senior and too junior I mean... how do I improve on that?!

Thankfully I don't work with anyone who suggested calling universities haha! Though my mum suggesting I try lecturing made me sigh a little (I... am mum)

I think what I'm really asking is when do you know if you should quit? I'm not at all suggesting I give up after a few applications, and know I'll probably need to make many more but I don't want to be one of the 'failed' permanent postdocs so just, where do I draw a line without feeling like I should have tried one more time you know?

How would one identify a colleague as a "permanent failed postdoc" ?

I feel for you, I was you ten years ago. For what it's worth I'm now a permanently contracted ass prof (though there's a strong element of 'be careful what you wish for' given the current state of academia). Even allowing for differences in fields you're ahead of where I was in terms of cv points. Based solely on this I would say you will probably get there eventually. As pps have said, and again allowing for differences in fields, you may have a few years yet to go. It took me 8 yrs from phd to perm job and more than 40 interviews. That's interviews, not applications. I was giving up when I got this. I'd applied for and been offered a job outside academia. Sometimes I wish I'd taken it...

For what's it's worth, you probably will get there. What you need to ask yourself is whether you're willing to put the years and stress in? Academia can be a cult, anyone leaving or not following the 'correct' path is made to feel like a failure... but from where I'm sitting, 'career' postdocs and those who left academia years ago look a lot happier than I do right now after a decade of permanent UK HE! Don't be afraid to say screw that and march out with your head held high if that's the best thing for you!

Also, whether you're male or female (or at the risk of starting a bunfight on this site, anything else!), if you're ever planning to have a family don't wait! I say that with just the one (admittedly supercool) child rather than the two I would have preferred.

Hi OP, I asked myself the same question 6 months ago, though my story is different! Since then I had my first baby (at 38yo). I went back to work 3 months post partum, partly for financial reasons and partly because of the high-level competition and trying to secure a longer contract. But now the answer is cristal clear: having a good work-life balance and not being in a toxic environment are more important to me than doing something interesting, meaningful or intellectually challenging. I also realise that I had somehow fallen for the "sunk cost fallacy" of academia. I still haven't figured out my next move, but I'm planning to move, yes.

Academia can be a cult, anyone leaving or not following the 'correct' path is made to feel like a failure... but from where I'm sitting, 'career' postdocs and those who left academia years ago look a lot happier than I do right now after a decade of permanent UK HE!

That is so true, @QueenRefusenik . I had a friend from university who did her PhD just a couple of years before me. She then moved straight to working in government agency (the equivalent of NICE). I felt a bit sorry for her that she didn't even try to work in academia. However, she has been recently promoted head of her department and doing so well!

I absolutely agree with the fact that academia is a cult, I actually started my career outside academia (did my PhD a bit later) and I'm not sure a lot of academics even realise how toxic it is. And don't even get me onto my Úniversities are profit making businesses and we deserve to be recompensed as such' soapbox...

Definitely the fact that I'm 36, a woman and don't know if I want to have kids is a factor in my worry too. I just don't know what else to do to be honest, but I am doing some data science quals just now so keeping a plan B on the back burner.

Thank you everyone with constructive input, it's nice to just 'say' some things out loud as I don't have anyone to talk about it with in real life!

Good luck, vent away!

Update on this!

Was meant to be transferred to a new contract in an agreement with a collaborator at their university (the classic, cant work more than 4 years on temp contracts, my institution wont offer a permanent contract)

Waited a month, no contract or updates provided. Warned them I'd have to look for another job if they didn't sort it out, no response. Emailed on Monday to say they haven't sorted it out so I'm leaving - got an email back within one minute to assure me it was being done (bollocks it is). Have worked all August for no pay.

So decision has been taken out of my hands I suppose, I quit. May I be a lesson to others - don't trust that they're sorting out contracts until you've one in your hand! They still have grant funding I won...

Feeling worried about abandoning projects and students. My PI even said he hasn't 'had time to look into this in detail' and hasn't contacted me since. Have more interviews for Ass. Prof. jobs in the UK lined up at least, and recruiters are biting my hand off for my CV so hopefully get something soon. So, onward and upwards I hope from here!

Honestly, it sucks, but it they wanted stability for the students and lab, they should have done that by giving you stability. You're disposable, so act like it and don't feel any guilt!

I'm 2.5 years down the line from you. The first year sucked feeling like my identity had been destroyed along with my career (not helped by Brexit, so I was neither a scientist nor European). After a false start, I found a job in a gouvernement research institute with 9-5 hours, permanent contract and interesting societally relevant research, if not quite so blue-sky cutting-edge. I'm really living the dream.

I hope it works out for you and that the unexpected change in circumstances actually gives you the catalyst to find a much better option.

Thanks @StamppotAndGravy it's good to hear you're doing so well after a similar experience!

I left my PhD many moons ago as I predicted the shit show that it is now.

I'd quit.