Is it possible to get a job after a PhD as a mature student? [long - sorry!]

[bodleianredux]

I'm changing some facts so as not to be completely outing!

I'm in my mid-forties and dropped out of my PhD 15 years ago due to a combination of a serious health issue (not cancer, but in that general area) and a new baby with colic who screamed for 4 months straight. We had no support at all, it was all too much and I dropped out having barely started. I have always regretted this. I ended up training in an industry that I love, and I freelance for a education-related business in that industry now. I'm very lucky.

For the sake of a bit of anonymity, let's call this industry sheep farming. My passion is for wool, sheep, the making of wool and the history of wool.

My children are both in secondary school now, and over the last couple of years I have really felt very sad about muffing my chance of an academic career.

So I could potentially apply to do a PhD this autumn, with a view to starting in October 2024. I will have finished the prestigious professional qualification in wool that I am currently working for, and before I started studying wool I got two degrees in ancient languages (BA & MA) and a masters in medieval history (this part is olnly slightly changed for the story).

I would like to do my PhD on the "wool" trade in medieval England and would be applying to prestigious local university and probably UCL too. I could keep my current role, or step into something similar - I have lots of digital marketing experience and this something that wool makers and wool experts need, so I could probably work 1 day a week or so and still bring in the 20k or so a year that I need to contribute to our household.

First of all, does anyone know if people of my age ever get funding for their doctorates? I can do a climate/global spin on my topic if necessary. It's heavily rooted in economics and international trade relationships within Europe.

And secondly - and perhaps even less likely, sadly - has anybody ever heard of someone graduating at nearly 50 who actually got a real job in academia? I don't mean 15 hours a week teaching Old English to 1st years as an endless "teaching assistant", but an actual full time academic post, even DL/3 year fixed term?

I know I would write a good thesis, I have lots of talented support at home, I fully understand the publishing expectations and the moves on the chess board. But I will be ANCIENT when I graduate. And there are no jobs - I know so many talented people on endless 1 year and even 1 year part time posts.

Apologies for the long post! I have namechanged for this, but I have been on here since the birth of the aforementioned screaming baby.

You should start looking NOW for studentships in AHRC funded Doctoral Training Partnerships in which your target universities work. If your actual field is in the humanities, that is ...!

As for jobs - the market is very very tight. That said, the job market has ALWAYS been tight - there was no "golden age" - I did my PhD in the late 80s/early 90s in a large humanities Department with about another 9 people - 2 of us ended up with academic careers - 20%.

So don't do a PhD in the hope of getting an academic job.

Funding is competitive, but not impossible, through the ARHC DTP scheme. Your age won't be an issue at all for funding; in fact, relevant professional experience is likely to boost your chances. Though you will need a first at UG and distinction at MA level to stand a chance. There are likely to be fewer scholarships next year (as was also the case this year) as cost of living increases for the stipend have been funded from the existing pot.; the number of scholarships awarded this year has been cut by 40% in the consortium my university is part of.

The job market is another matter. It's massively competitive, and the vast majority of people don't end up with a permanent academic job. You need to do the PhD because you want to, not because you want an academic job.

Funding for a PhD - more likely with so much experience

a job - less likely at that age. And there aren’t many jobs to start with.

IMO only.

would doing a PhD be useful for your current career?

i'm a prof at UCL & also do some PhD admissions.

find potential supervisors for your PhD and contact them in September '23 with the aim of completing an application for a Dec '23 deadline to start a PhD in '24.

the first and most crucial step is to find a supportive supervisor - they will guide you through the whole of the funding and application process.

funding at UCL is v hard to get - it was easier when I was at an RG uni outside London.

full time academic jobs after the PhD are much harder. you need to be in a field where there is demand for teaching (i.e. industry wants people trained in the area) and where there are jobs available. But it is not impossible - you won't know unless you try.

Don't for a second think your age will hold you back for funding or even in the job market! An early career academic is an early career academic- it doesn't matter how old you are. The problem is the job market - it's terrible for even the most accomplished PhDs. There might have been no golden age - but things are getting progressively worse. Departments are getting squeezed with universities making cuts to staff and programmes and then we see an overproduction of PhDs - far, far more than a few decades ago! So it's fewer jobs for my more PhD holders and the standards insanely high. It's great that you already have an established career so don't give that up and do the PhD for your fulfillment. You can still put your name in the ring if a good academic job comes up, but I sadly wouldn't bet on it!

• if you earn 20k now for one day a week, you could make the same salary as a full time junior lecturer by working 2days in your current job, and use the remainder of the week for study/research/teaching without pressure of needing a job.

Academic jobs are loads of hours and stressful student demands for modest money and the conditions are not something most people who have been senior in another career would fancy

Do it for fun alongside your day job

Thank you so much for all your comments - I really appreciate it.

The job thing is as I expected. I am cheered by the attitude re. potential funding, although my previous degrees are 2.1/2.1 and Merit, not Distinction in the MPhil, so it might still be a bit of a reach. Maybe the fact that my MA was 20 years ago will be a mitigating factor!

A PhD would not hurt me in the "wool" industry at all. Far from it. There's a choice of pathway between doing a PhD, an MSc in the specific agricultural niche, or doing a different enormously competitive industry-specific qualification.

I should have mentioned that my DH is a successful academic, and he has my back. I have done plenty of editing and proof-reading for him and have seen how hard he works, so I don't have too romantic an idea of it. I have also seen how few of the people in his network who got their doctorates around the same time as him actually got jobs.

(btw I mistyped above - I don't get 20k for 1 day a week - that would be amazing! It's more like 12k.)

Aha if your DH is an academic you probably have a lot of insight already and would need advice specific to the field and possibly even the course, I would think

In general I'd think you would be as employable (and therefore as fundable as a phd student) as a younger person, or more so, if your industry experience increases you credibility- examples I can think of are lawyers or medics or financial type people who have practiced and then come back to academia n relevant fields

Good luck with it. Doing a phd is a journey for your own development and self actualisation as well as (more than) a career path

It's a difficult time for academia with frozen student fees, a collapse in EU numbers, political rhetoric on immigration putting overseas students off, and some doubts still about whether we will be able to join the Horizon EU research pot.

I'm designing any project PhDs so carefully so that they have good routes out of academia.

I guess, doing a PhD is a joy, but are you sure you CBA with casting around for a job afterwards?

I’m sat next to my Professor DH and asked him and he said he knows of no one who has got the type of job you are mentioning at that age, He received his first permanent lectureship age 30 and is now mid fifties and head of dept. I am not an academic but did work with them for a while and I did meet a couple who had studied as mature students but were in their thirties when they finished their PhD studies and do get per a set lectureships.

If you want to do it for the love of it and won’t be suffering too much financially then go for it but the chances at any age of a permanent post are really slim. There is quite a bit of money sloshing about in DH discipline as it has industrial application. That’s something to consider.

I know a few people in my field who secured permanent or "temp-to-perm" positions later in life, but then my field, even though Arts&Humanities, has a practical/industry streak and so these people worked in that area and having done so is something they could spin positively.
Is this something you could do yourself, i.e. bank on your industry experience/contacts after you finish your PhD to market yourself as someone who could design and run a very industry-oriented programme, or work placements, etc. I imagine this would require you to keep some of your contacts/experience active so that your profile is credible 4-5 years down the line when you're applying for jobs.

There isn't a lot of demand for people who can teach about medieval wool trade...

Not trying to be negative, but yeah of course the topic/area matters, with regard to future employment prospects. I can say categorically that a person with PhD in bioinfomatics, virology, cell energy chemistry or stats would be very employable and highly sought after, even if they were 65 when they graduated. An economist who can do fancy modelling : fairly employable regardless of age. An economist who can tell you about the history of that economic product... mmmmm... well, it got Kwasi Kwarteng where he is now, so maybe.

Why is academia the only direction you want to go after PhD?

Thank you - yes, I do imagine keeping what I do now runing on the back burner throughout for the very reason you mention, and it was one of the first points DH raised too (that I have been putting a lot of work into what I do now, and I can't risk squandering that).

I'm a mature ECR, finished my PhD at 40 and now on fixed term contract, half "playing the game" and half feeling like an idiot for doing so and wondering when to just cut my losses and leave. When you're older, perhaps you can walk this line more effectively - I can see how some of the stuff I'm doing translates across non-academic roles. But really? There is an awful sinking feeling when younger PhDs no better on paper get permanent posts and that doesn't really go away. It's hard to stay positive and believe that age and social circle you have at the university isn't related to it (maybe we seem less like we need a hand up? Or because I can't work weekends?). I also worry about how I'd get a job outside academia if I did leave (a careers advisor at the uni said it's normal for people in their 40s-50s to get first jobs at unis these days, but is that true outside?)

If you do find funding and do it and want the option of an academic career, one piece of advice: find a supervisor who will publish with you very early on. This is rarer in the arts and soc sci than science

@tresleches Thank you for this. It's an interesting - and sobering - perspective.

I can cope with the blow of seeing younger people getting hired and if a job doesn't come my way I will absolutely accept that. I see lots of clever, talented and lovely people NOT getting jobs, even with Oxbridge doctorates, because if there aren't enough jobs out there it doesn't matter how clever and lovely everyone is - most people aren't going to get hired. And if there is even one thing not in your favour (age, for instance) then it's game over. I do see that.

But, I'm still plotting and planning! Going to put together my first writing sample over the next few weeks, and see how I even enjoy doing that. My husband is very happy to "supervise" me on this, so I'm quite looking forward to it.