Negotiations for job offer

[Teabag2023]

Hi all starting a new thread following from the interview prep but focused on negotiation of my new job offer. I'd be really interested in people's views on what are acceptable requests for negotiations.

The advertised job is for a tenured lecturer with approx 80% teaching and 20% research.

I'm coming from a 100% research role (plus a couple of lectures here and there). Benefit of new role is tenure vs fixed term contract.

I currently hold a joint appointment with a seperate research institution and want to take that joint appointment with me (would be a strategic fit for new uni too and new HoD and direct line manager supportive of this). This would buy out 25% of my time during which I would continue to manage ongoing projects, PhD students and my team of 2 post docs and 3 research associates.

I'm currently on the top spine of grd.8 at my current uni (slightly higher pay than the equivalent spine point at new uni). My 'redline' ask is for them to match my pay. However I tick all requirements for senior lecturer (and would be applying for such at end of the yr as part of contract renegotiation if I stayed put).

Would it be ridiculous for me to ask to start as a SL when advert was for Lecturer level? I'm feeling very clueless about where to start!!

The uni I work for wouldn't appoint you as SL when it was advertised as L level. They also won't appoint above top of the spine point. You can always ask but it would be a flat out no where I work. The recruiting manager would also have to put forward a strong business case to appoint you at top of scale.

I chair a lot of recruitment panels. At my institution, it would be extremely difficult to appoint someone on a different grade to that advertised. There is a financial aspect to this: the post has been approved (and budgeted for!) at grade X and not grade Y. There's also an HR/process aspect: SL is a different role. It would be unfair (and not legally robust) to appoint you to a job that hasn't been advertised, and which other suitably qualified applicants might have applied for if it had. Moreover, the appointment process assessed your suitability for grade X and not grade Y. Indeed, the appointments process might be different (we require external assessors for SL but not L for example).

I moved uni in a somewhat similar position -overdue a promotion to SL but took a job at L to be in the city I wanted. New uni promised they'd put me up for promotion within the year and they did and it all went through.

If I'd pushed for a higher grade, it would have been a no.

If you go for the same route, make sure the promotion criteria are v clear and don't require new things between appointment and promotion

Thank you all so much it's really useful so I don't go blundering in requesting the improssible. @FurryGiraffe the difference in recruitment procedure etc makes complete sense.

As far as being appointed at my current salary even if it's above the spine point I assume that's just making a business case and given that I'll immediately bring in 25% of my global costs id imagine they could fund it.

@parietal that's great to hear I'll ask if it would be possible to be put forward for promotion in the next round.

Thanks again for the insights... Need to make sure I don't rush this and get what I want out of it!

You say you are bringing in 25% of your salary but they will also be losing you for 25% of the time. That might not be a goer for them. Depends how desperate they are to fill the role and other candidates.

You could argue for a market supplement with promise of promotion to SL subject to meeting certain criteria in the next 12 months?

Ours would put you top of scale of justified, but they would not appoint to higher grade than advertised. They'd have to readvertise and give other people a chance to apply.

There would be no harm in enquiring but I would avoid ultimatums. It's not an unusual conversation and if you keep it diplomatic, fine.

I would ask about procedure to progress to SL and would want to see that in writing. Some places do it almost automatically from top of scale. Some base on existing profile. Some base on creating a new role. Some need to see budget growth. This is a very sensible thing to investigate.

When I did all my training in appointments (training for academics sitting on appointment committees) it was impressed upon us that we needed to appoint at the advertised level. It’s against good equalities practice to advertise at L and appoint at SL.

My view of a request like yours would be that there might be some sacrifice on your part in moving from a fixed term post to a permanent post.

Excellent point.

Research grants only bring in money to universities if they can replace your teaching and admin time that they lose through you being bought out, by someone who’s cheaper than the research grant holder.

If pay at the top of their grade for lecturer is lower than you would accept, it really would not be simple for them to pay you more. There is a nationally agreed pay structure and this is another case where they'd have to consider everyone else in the university. A lecturer role is paid at a set rate. If you're appointed as a lecturer, they can't exceed that.

What you could look at is requesting a 75% part time role and being paid directly, 25% of salary from the research institute. That might not be attractive to the new place, but you never know. Even under your current arrangements it's not obvious who gets credit where REF is concerned and I'd presume that and student fees stay with the institution. If I were involved I'd be trying to sort out a formal partnership with the institution - maybe they can do that but not in a job offer timeframe?

You are making a mistake here thinking about your profile and experience instead of the role. But it's the role the university wants to fill. In an 80% teaching role they're presumably going to want a fair bit of teaching and course admin and a strong contribution to the dept. Managing 25% buyout is a pain - somebody is going to have to recruit, train etc for these roles.

My heart would be sinking a bit if I were your prospective manager. Do you want the actual job they advertised or not? Do they get concrete benefits (not reputation / networking) from the secondment? Timetabling and managing two people is more complex than one, and the 25% is always a recruitment struggle / flight risk. If I was very keen to have you and you seemed keen on the rest of the job I'd be trying to make this work, but I wouldn't anticipate that it would be easy.

Another route to consider, if your research has commercial value, is whether the university has a commercial services dept that could agree profit arrangements.

But while I can see this is an attractive proposition to you - higher salary, keep current links and projects - I don't think it's a fit for the role. Be receptive and open minded in your discussions.

We would come under pressure to agree or ask you to reject the offer within a week or so, unless no other candidates had been appointable.

Your best bet is top of scale, all available info about progress to SL, think about concrete benefits of 25 per cent buyout to them, think about what aspects of the role you can and can't do at 75 per cent. (A course leader role might not be possible but might be expected at SL).

You seem to have very little teaching experience. Should you be top of scale at L? It's an 80% teaching role.

Hope this is helpful to show some possible complications - they may like you and want you but what you are requesting isn't simple and may not be possible, so don't take it personally if it can't be done.

Good luck and well done on the offer.

Thanks all lots to think about. Without going into details the 25% buy out has been clear from before I applied and I was encouraged to do so...there are hurdles to jump but line management are on board at least.

Good point @Looksgood re alignment to role to justify pay scale. I'll have to have a think about what I will do if they can't move on salary .. would I take tenure with a paycut? Something to think about so thanks. 🤔

would I take tenure with a paycut?

Well, it's a reasonable exchange, IMO. It's a bargain that that academics on standard teaching & research contracts have always made. For me that was always the solution. I like stability & security.

Maybe you don't need that, or are happy to keep going for another fixed-term contract which is 100% research. It's really down to your approach to security and planning.

@BlueHeelers I think I'm leaning in your direction (assuming cut isn't too severe)...let's see what comes on the offer letter and start from there (offer by phone this far).

Hello - any update on how this negotiation went?

Are you at the very top? As in you also have the discretionary spine points as well as the base ones? You won't get SL, but maybe you could get into the discretionary ones right up top if you aren't already.

Hi guys...so it's been a mixed bag. Salary wise they've offered the first discretionary point at top grade (matching current salary) so that's great. Still waiting on agreement of working location (agreed with direct line management and stuck in the slow moving administration!) Hopefully it will all come through finally!