"You should work at home in the evenings"

[WhatPostDoc]

This is probably more of a rant. I'm a lab-based post doc, earning approx £36K, contracted 37.5 hours but easily work more (often an hour a day plus sometimes a few hours on weekends). Today my boss berated me in a meeting with lots of colleagues about the progress of my project. To be clear everyone else had just finished saying how good everything is, and he himself had to admit the standard of work was good but he thinks it's unacceptable there isn't more of it. Others in the meeting pulled me aside after to reassure me I have plenty and he is being a knobhead. He lives to work, no spouse, no children, no annual leave.

He apparently thinks I'm not doing enough and that I should just do work in the laboratory during the day, and do all the analysis and writing up etc. in the evenings after dinner. He also wants me to cancel my annual leave this summer (first holiday with baby) and not take any annual leave until the progress is 'acceptable'.

My first instinct is to tell him to fuck off and I don't get paid any where near enough for this! If he wants to work every evening on his professor salary he can knock himself out but I want to spend time with my little one thank you very much! But that's not going to do wonders for our working relationship. Any tips on how to handle this?

Double the fuck off. As long as you are completely all the work required to the standard required by the deadlines he can puss off with his work is all there is to life attitude.

If he has a meeting with you and discusses why he thinks you're work isn't up to standard then he'd have to put procedures that mean you can bring your work up to standard but it should be within your contracted hours not outside. If he's just slagged you off in a meeting fo to HR and grass the weasle up

I think he needs to identify what the issue is. Is he saying you are slacking off or something isn't right or does he just expect you to work late. You shouldn't have to work evenings and not have holidays.

So when you say apparently he wants you to work in excess, do you mean he said it to you, or, it's what you have been told? Is he approachable? I know you say he lives to work but, he is clearly being unreasonable if he 'thinks' this.

It makes a big difference what you know and what you have heard.

You are female and were recently on maternity leave? Houston, I think we have a sexist twat. Take it up with HR.

Triple fuck off from me. I had a similar HoD.

I was also a lab based post doc before not returning to work after second DC. It was generally accepted that you work evenings, weekends etc. Academia is not a very healthy work environment especially as grants become more and more competitive. Meetings were often scheduled for 6/7pm, you were praised for signing into the building during the weekends. I had to leave to pick up my son at 4.45pm (started early to make up for this) but was often told PI was "looking for me" at 6.30pm, or at least coming to check who was in the office. It was expected that we keep up with papers and reading in our own time.

I returned after first DC on three days a week, and actually found things improved. I think the boss would have got in trouble scheduling late meetings for a working mother, so mine were always early enough! The three days were tough though. Its not a career I wanted, or felt, like I could maintain with a family. Like you say, the profs are up all night, the emails are sent at all sorts of times!

YANBU, it's unfortunate the pressure that you've been put under. Yes to your PI fucking off! As long as you are working efficiently and working your hours, there isn't anything they can do. Does he want viable results or rushed, less trustworthy ones?!

So... where are you job hunting now, OP? Coz I would be after that conversation.

And this unhealthy attitude is why I left academia and work in industry.

I would stick to your regular hours, do your work and ignore any comments that not enough is done. if he says that again, ask 'what do you want me to drop' or 'can you give me an RA to help me'.

do you have a mentor in the department? can you try to find one (many universities have mentoring schemes and some scientific societies do too). you might be able to ask your mentor to help you push back. Or to talk to HR.

If the lab has Wellcome funding, be aware that they have a strong push at the moment towards a supportive research culture and might also be able to help you push back if you needed to.

some labs have a very bad culture of long hours etc. But others are fine so do look for other jobs and don't assume it is the same everywhere.

Ugh. Standard narrative in academia, especially from men profs. Feels like you have to kill yourself to "break even". He is wrong, you shouldn't live to work.

Have you considered an alt-academic career? I left academia to be a researcher in industry with many other PhD holders working on tough and interesting problems. I reduced my work hours and trippled my salary. You should seriously consider it if you haven't before. I don't see the academic system changing any time soon.

Sorry for the confusion, he berated me in a meeting then said about the working evenings and cancelling holiday later on in the office when I (politely) asked him wtf was that in the meeting because he'd never raised any concerns to me before.

To be clear, there is no question about the standard of the work, even he admits there is nothing to complain about there. He acknowledged I'm working, and as fast as I can but he still wants more. I've contributed to multiple publications. He'd get no where offically with this because he is being a twat, but being yelled at in front of colleagues isn't the best work environment.

I could talk to HR but they'll do nothing, I'm employed by funding awarded to him, it's not like I can report to someone else.

If you want to stay in academia do you have a mentor or sponsor you can talk to, or perhaps the HoD? Is there any contact for pastoral support? Does your department aim to be Athena Swan? Is there a committee or group that advocates for work-life balance or keeping women in the profession? Tackling the leaky pipeline etc.? I think this is a systematic change issue.

Or maybe in a 1:1 with the prof talk about your boundaries and expected work hours - I know it happens, but it isn't logical to say "a 40 hour contract actually means 80 hours of work".

Can you get an intern to outsource lab work to? Can you use ChatGPT to help write papers? Feels like I'm clutching at straws if he fundamentally believes you just need to "work more and not have holiday".

Why do it? What is the reward or benefit? Why can't you have time off or a holiday with your baby? This kind of thing makes me so angry.

you can talk to HR and they can do something. if you feel bullied by your boss, they will launch an investigation and can reprimand him. if you want to do that, make sure that you have all incidents documented and have witnesses / things in writing as much as possible. Collect evidence over a period of time so that you have everything ready when you put in a complaint.

alternatively, just ignore the rants and do the work at your own pace. Also, remind him that if you quit, the work stops for 3 months or longer while he tries to hire a replacement (not easy at the moment) which is much worse for him & his grant.

the wellcome trust focus on research culture might also be helpful if you want to point out to the boss / the university how grant agencies are looking for places that support employees rather than expecting excessive hours.
wellcome.org/news/our-sector-must-come-together-improve-research-culture
ATHENA Swan reps may also be able to help.

I'd email (for paper trail) something along the lines of

"Following the meeting on X project, all involved were completely satisfied with the quality of the work produced, you included. It appears however that you wish to ramp up the volume of work being completed. Currently the pace of the project meets the full time nature of the post, so if you were considering taking on additional resouce to improve speed of delivery, I would be happy to work with you in seeing how this may look"

Then in a separate email "following on your request for me to cancel my annual leave, as it is approved, I have since made plans which I am not able to ammend"

Literally keep digital record of it all. Its likely to increase.

It isn't sexist though.
There is an expectation amongst many, many professors that you work at least some evenings and weekends. They will say that to post docs whatever sex they are.
It is a culture that goes with the job.
Not saying it is right, but just correcting those accusing the Professor of sexism.

Sorry to hear you’re dealing with such a crazy dinosaur, OP! Agree with previous poster to put situation in writing via email.

@Orangeradiorabbit what industry do you work in and any tips for finding such better pay and job conditions?

If you chose to, could you do the analysis ect after hours op @WhatPostDoc ?

Hmm I'd be mentioning work/life balance, taking care of you mental health so you don't get burnout after all there will be far less produced if you end up off with stress.

Ummmm no, would be my answer.

Don't elaborate, just say that you are paid to work x hours and (as he has admitted) your performance is as it should be for someone working those hours.

You will not be working additional hours for free or cancelling annual leave to which you are entitled (and not allowing you this leave could be breaking the law).

If he continues to bully and harass you, contact your HR dept and ACAS for advice.

Personally I would put what he said in an email cc'd to HR along the lines of "I just wanted to confirm what you asked me to do in our meeting of xxxx. You asked me to cancel my leave and work in the evenings etc etc. you confirmed my work and progress was acceptable for the hours I am contracted work but you believe I should be working additional hours in my own time and during my annual leave. Please clarify have misunderstood our conversation. '. Then I'd add that I wanted to clarify in writing that wasn't prepared to work outside of my contracted hours for free or relinquish holiday to which I am entitled (legally or otherwise). Sure you can work it better than that!

Get in in writing basically.

What an absolute tosser.

From a professor who is single and childless: Working many hours is how you get to be a professor. There are sacrifices either way for both you and him - it's just that you don't see his sacrifices.

Only working the set 37.5 hours a week is not going to get anyone anywhere in any professional career. Any professional career - if you define "getting anywhere" as getting his "professor's salary" - (which, by the way, is not huge for the level of expertise).

Now, there is a serious and extended argument to be had about the expectations that a professional career (law, medicine, academia etc) and "success" requires this level of work, and that it's historically organised around male life-patterns, social structures and physiology. The time when academics need to work over the odds to establish a career is also the best time for women to have their DC if they want them. It is a real problem, but it's not of your professor's making. It's your professor's over-work and no children or personal life (as you see it) which has produced the research grants & research team which gives you a job.

I think you need to separate out what is unacceptable - his criticism of you in a meeting, and this coming out of the blue. But you also need to see the reality of the career, and think longer term.

As PPs have said, you also need to develop your own networks. Find a more senior woman with children - talk to her about how she managed. My female colleagues with DC generally have a pattern of keeping their career ticking over at a low level while their DC are young, and then accelerating marvellously once the DC are at school. It's absolutely wonderful to watch! They now have the careers and the children. Many of us don't have that.

In my experience, as a professor, I spend far more time supporting & facilitating ECRs' research careers than doing my own research. It's worth thinking about.

Blah. Maybe the status, pay, pension and autonomy were worth working all hours in academia in previous eras. But not today imho. Your boss is so wrong to pressure you in this way.

Do you have an Athena SWAN rep in department? I'd ask for a quiet work with them. Sorry, it's shit and it doesn't end with a permanent job (though the salary does get a bit better at least!)

I am a senior lab based PI and I was part time for eight years. I never work evenings or weekends except the fortnight before a grant is due. my lab don’t either and we are still very successful (more than £2 million won since last spring).

having happy well-rested staff and a collaborative, friendly work environment where we alll help each other is a VERY important part of our success. Driving people to leave is always worse for everyone

This is, pure and simple, bullying. Make sure you record everything in writing as pp say.

Do you have an anonymous way of reporting his behaviour? We do in our university. It doesn't solve the problem but it gives the university a picture of what's going on.