Cannot face going back to academic role

Same for me Marasme - this is what I understand by research group

We have groups of 15+ in my department but none have a lecturer other than the PI. Students, post docs, a lab manager, technicians, bioinformaticians maybe

Anyway - Marasme I am willing you on in your quest to do a slightly less good job 😁

I think this is an issue of different disciplines.

In my field (literature/history) you might be in a 'research group' made up of lecturers, but then we don't need a great deal of funding to be research active. I recently applied for a job where I'd have been a member of a research group that had a prof, someone non-prof-level (I forget where), a postdoc and some PhD students. They would have appointed at grade 7/8, which is a lectureship.

Ah, in my institution, we work together as academics in research groups - so we group ourselves together under themes (usually 3-6 academics in a research group, plus all of our postdocs and PhD students). Don't academic colleagues work together at your uni, then?

In my experience the variation is not between institutions, but between different STEM fields. There are scientific areas where working together in extended groups is the norm e.g. collaborative physics experiments such as CERN. There are other areas where single PIs leading separate groups is the norm e.g. much of chemistry, biosciences. I am assuming that the OP is in a field such as the latter (dry/wet lab).

I work in an area where extended groups including multiple permanent staff is the norm. However the bulk of the leadership still tends to fall on one person!

(Oh, and I should say, in my field being 'in a research group' with someone definitely does not mean you are working collaboratively or supportively with them! )

And if you are in. This sort of Research group I would guess you also can’t parcel off your marking to other lecturers jn the group

Marasme great username! I am a Prof, in the Humanities field though, so very different opportunities for funding and a very different nature of research. Loved this thread, and commiserate with fellow sufferers. With restructuring which seems to have happened UK-wide in all institutions, admin has been annihilated. With no admin support, we just absorb all admin and above, and the expectation is, also one that we have of ourselves, is that you can still go on and still do great research, because we are here for it, right? Admin is not a job (in my feeling of it), I am doing it because I have to, but my real job is research, which I do in the nights, weekends, holidays, etc. So basically we absorb increasing admin without adjusting our expectations. Nor that we can, try not having publications...

HR is ALWAYS crap (why?) So called support services are actually obstructive.

What I wanted to say is why not trying another University in the UK? I worked in 4 different places here and they were ALL very different. There are absolutely similar issues in many places, but it is inevitable that there would be differences between places

Yes, I agree, it's depressing. I am only 44 and everyone I know is thinking /dreaming about retiring (or having crazy exit plans) and leaving all this crap behind.

I only hope that this will somehow change? For instance, in the next 2 years we will see the beginning of a baby boom becoming 18 and maybe there will be more resources? Or the Tory will drive the country into the wall, there will be a change of government and the mood will change? I find at my uni the Tory mindset has seeped into everything; our SMT and some senior people openly attack intellectual work and, for instance, art, just channeling Tory attack on education and making a home for themselves in it.

I feel we are under some kind of siege; but I just hope that as with any war it would change at some point? Mind you, I don't have an option to switch into the industry and sometimes do seriously think about going and working in Scandinavia. Although they have their own issues..

On the HR anecdotes, I had HR miss out some probation conditions on my job offer / contract for my latest job and tried insisting I sign a new contract with more conditions months later I signed the original one. Hell I did. Not that I had any problems with the conditions, but it was just funny

For instance, in my Uni PIs get a pot of their own money they can spend as they please, for instance, on hiring teaching assistants for marking, etc
I worked at a top ten uni which was horrible in all respects bar in one department marking was shared equally between everyone so no one was loaded with too much or too little, which looked like something that the department decided collectively and it looked good (from the outside).
I know some departments pitch in money (somehow) to organise admin support where it has been eviscerated.
I know moving is difficult and 10-13 are difficult ages school-wise. At least you can get more money when you move? Do a little fraud and pay for marking to a PhD student out of your own pocket? I know someone who is going to take a term of unpaid leave to catch up on writing. Crazy, isn't it

I also observe my older, all male, senior colleagues. What do they do:
-not turn up for meetings;
-say they will take part in a committee, get ill on the day, repeatedly;
-always leave early (incredibly, but some always leave after an hour!);
-don't observe marking deadlines.

After all, I noticed, with all the requirements, there is about 80-90% completion rate, whether it is to do some obligatory training, or get your online teaching materials into a specific format. Who are the 10% maybe the people that have an easier life?

Basically echoing previous posters who say we women need to learn to be less good

Taking a term of unpaid leave and continuing to work is complete lunacy

That's the nature of our work, it's a "calling" isn't it? I mean, it is a bad idea but there are writers who barely make ends meet and still stick to a life like that.
And it seems like writing books is not considered our "job" anymore. We are expected to form partnerships with SMEs and do knowledge exchange and otherwise work for/with the businesses. [why? if I wanted I would have worked there and would have been earning maybe twice than I am now, total lunacy!]

I maybe shouldn't comment, as I've never had anything but temporary postdocs, but I don't like the idea academia is a 'calling'. What about all the people who go into it because they actually thought it was a good way to earn a living?!

@SarahAndQuack It is really not a good way to earn a living. You are in education for 3-7 years longer than anyone else (PhD) while you are at best on a small scholarship. Then temporary postdocs, not greatly paid. Then, if you lucky, first contract. It is a great achievement to have an actual job at 35. It is very tough on women (many have to delay TTC until having written a substantial publication and having got a tenure, so basically until very late). For many, it is long long years paid quite badly. It is basically very risky. If you think of people of such intelligence and skill, they can earn elsewhere much better. Most my friends earned more than me when I was in my thirties. If I went to, say marketing and advertisement, jobs on offer upon graduation, I would be earning twice now (I have friends in those jobs).

It is not IN GENERAL a bad way to earn a living compared to the general population and averages, but it is very risky (years of training with uncertain possibility of employment). Lots of rejections (publishers, funders). You have to be obsessed with what you are doing to survive all that and carry on. That's why it is a sort of calling.

Maybe it was quite different 20+ years ago where people kind of fell into academic jobs. One hears such stories. Not anymore

I once calculated, I was in education for 22 years of my life. One would expect better pay and conditions after such an extensive training

Hi Marasme

I'm just here to express sympathy from a similar position - Prof leading a science group at an RG uni etc.

In the last year, I've cut back my group size - I'm refusing to consider any new PhD students for next year because I've already got 4, and I'm taking fewer MSc students too. I reckon I'd rather do slow-science than burn out.

are there no sabbatical options at all where you are? that seems unusual & might be worth kicking up a fuss about. even an 'unofficial sabbatical' can be a good way to get a break from committees etc for a term. Or can you use the job offer from overseas as an argument for why you need a break & a sabbatical in the UK?

[quote microbius]@SarahAndQuack It is really not a good way to earn a living. You are in education for 3-7 years longer than anyone else (PhD) while you are at best on a small scholarship. Then temporary postdocs, not greatly paid. Then, if you lucky, first contract. It is a great achievement to have an actual job at 35. It is very tough on women (many have to delay TTC until having written a substantial publication and having got a tenure, so basically until very late). For many, it is long long years paid quite badly. It is basically very risky. If you think of people of such intelligence and skill, they can earn elsewhere much better. Most my friends earned more than me when I was in my thirties. If I went to, say marketing and advertisement, jobs on offer upon graduation, I would be earning twice now (I have friends in those jobs).

It is not IN GENERAL a bad way to earn a living compared to the general population and averages, but it is very risky (years of training with uncertain possibility of employment). Lots of rejections (publishers, funders). You have to be obsessed with what you are doing to survive all that and carry on. That's why it is a sort of calling.

Maybe it was quite different 20+ years ago where people kind of fell into academic jobs. One hears such stories. Not anymore[/quote]
Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not being clear what I mean.

What I mean is, if you look at it at every stage, it can look like a sensible choice (and this is partly a 'sunk costs' fallacy). It doesn't look like a 'calling'.

• Say you get a scholarship for a PhD, and you earn 13k untaxed. Great, you think, I was struggling for jobs and this is fine.

• Then you get a teaching job or a postdoc, and you're still paying the bills, so you think, fine.

• Then perhaps you have another postdoc or temp teaching job, and perhaps you're on 25 or 28k, which is more than people you know in other jobs, and here you are applying for jobs that pay 35 or 40k, and you're getting shortlisted, so it all feels quite possible.

I don’t see it as a calling either, and I approached job hunting like Sarah at each stage. I see it as a job. I would literally never take unpaid leave and still work even just on my research. I find the idea completely preposterous!

(I am tenured in a very prestigious old university, if that matters).

I would leave academia tomorrow if I got another interesting, secure job offer

Ah, see, now I am perhaps a hypocrite, because I wonder, if I had an interesting, secure job offer, whether I would leave academia!

To me the main perks are that I can do so much around my daughter, and work when I choose. But it could be I'm just nervous of the unknown, and I do find it interesting that someone on this thread has said so certainly and positively that the civil service would be interested in former academics. I've always worried we are unemployable (and it's probably discipline-specific).

But this doesn't solve @Marasme's problem of not wanting to retrain, I think, so perhaps I'm just complicating things by talking about it all.

I don't know what you should do long-term.

There are definitely some ways though you could cut down your workload now. I wouldn't do any of the things you just described (I'm a bit less senior than you at RG uni). I don't do other people's marking, I don't seek out extra 'opportunities' ever (I deliberately hold an 'easy' admin position and cling onto it for dear life), I haven't been replacing PhD students lately or taking on many Masters students- I had a few bad years and now only take them if their subject is totally in my area and/or they have money/funding. I put an auto-reply on for two weeks at Christmas, two weeks at Easter and three weeks in the summer minimum, warning all students in advance and setting everything up so 99% of questions (e.g. about exams, wellbeing) are answered already.

I also can't understand why you are teaching so much if you are running grants, and you definitely need to go somewhere that a sabbatical is possible, if not proper buy-out/relief from teaching.

I appreciate it's different for a HoD post, as that's more fire-fighting and dealing with hierarchies, but in your position, I think being a bit more crap and not taking on any additional duties whatsoever ever is a good starting point. I just look vague when people are called on to do extra stuff, I don't review for journals unless I actually want to read the paper and so on.

You can't do it all in academia I don't think and not burn out. Definitely have a slack couple of years while you work out if you want to leave altogether.