Academic job dilemna - stick or go?

[AcademicDilemna]

Have NCed for this....

I ve been offered a job and need to make a decision... here are the parameters, before i elaborate:

current job
SL in STEM in a lab-based topic, tenured
UK uni, RG, big top 5 aspirations
Promotion to Prof just announced
Heavy ish teaching load at PGT level esp trimester 1 (80% effort on teaching marking) and 3 (80% effort on dissertation supervision)
Several PhD students at any point (currently 8) with pressure from uni to take more
Shared lab space with ageing equipment which uni does not help maintain
Dwindling research funds thanks to numerous bids not successful last year - but still ok
Several bids still in progress / review with UKRI, which i d need to give up (?) if funded
Loads of service roles at uni on dozens of committees
New management restricting our financial freedom
Toxic colleagues with ongoing bullying issues that management has left unaddressed for years
Good colleagues leaving one by one and being replaced by selfish bastards
General lack of team collaboration but good colleagues further out
Great external profile and senior appointments to society and regulatory body roles
Regular invites to speak.

new job
Abroad, in a EU country i spent several years as a child
Tenure track with vague promises of future commitment (Prof role at end of tenure)
100% research for 3 years
starter pack for research
1 funded PhD student
new lab for me and access to well maintained core facilities
Low salary (typical for this country, but big cut)
New facility
Colleagues seem OK but no ongoing relationship there
Unknown town, although very good reputation
Potential to establish a niche research theme

I have 2 DCs and a DP. DP is onboard, the DC not as much but OK. Transition would be tricky in short term but ok longer term.
We otherwise have a nice life in UK: super house, super neighbours, good schools nearby, but no immediate family where we are (moving would bring us a little closer but still not next door). I spend my life working so very little "life" in the balance.

Honestly? I would stay. And look for a different job. To throw happy settled children, a lovely house, friends etc up in the air to go somewhere which may not be great either and you may not get tenure at the end…

I would look for a job outside academia here I think.

Can you consider the EU post as a 3 year temporary opportunity and you can then come back to the UK? Or does it have to be a one-way thing?

Would the new post just be the same shit in a different place?

How old are the DC? Can you stay in the old place for a few years until they have left home then move

Does the old place really expect you to give up successful UKRI funding? Are they bananas?

Is the old place so bad you have to leave? In which case just leave and work the rest out later. Otherwise the pressures are the same everywhere (funding, teaching etc.)

PS many congrats indeed on the promotion to Prof!!!!

the new job looks v high risk to me. especially the lack of tenure & new colleagues. it could take you 2 years just to get a new group set up & get things going.

I think it might be better to stay for now, but keep looking for good jobs elsewhere.

To what extent have you tried negotiating with your current institution for retention? Could you use this to slightly improve your situation while you look for something else?

I have moved between countries several times, building labs from scratch each time. One uses up a lot of time and energy on learning new systems, new processes and new culture. One also has to rebuild one's local and national networks. Do you know what the future prospects for funding, teaching, service etc are in the new institution? Are you sure that there aren't issues with culture and behaviour there, albeit perhaps different to what you are currently experiencing? Would the new institution also end up having a management led structure within a short period of time?

I'm a lecturer on an education contract in the social sciences, so obviously very different position to you.

But there is no way I personally would be giving up a secure job and uprooting my family. I also wouldn't be impressed if DH (very similar professional stage to you) suggested it.

That of course doesn't mean it would be wrong for you, but it would definitely be wrong for me.

Where are the decent people going, are there any local options?

thanks for the replies!

I must add: i m not a UK citizen, but DP and DCs (both primary age) are. DC is not from our part of the country and has said he does not see himself growing old here (would want to go back to where he s from).

Good colleagues are moving out of academia, some within UK, some out

As for UKRI funding, i meant i'd need to give it up if i moved

I am trying to suss out the culture of the new place but it s tough. If I was not employed where I am, i m not sure what i d do here, TBH. Other UK unis are the same shit, different place, and non academic jobs do not interest me.

As for retention, i ve not attempted the discussion because i don t like the notion of blackmail. My HoD has failed to address the bullying, I don t trust any of his empty promises.

I see what happened in Liverpool and I cannot help but think that it might be my uni soon...

i am of course very grateful for my tenured position, but this year has broken me.
Teaching and marking has been insane, and what made the job worthwhile is quickly fading away.

Add on top Brexit (as a EU citizen) and COVID (with not having seen family for 2 years) and i am seriously considering my long term prospects here in the UK.

As for retention, i ve not attempted the discussion because i don t like the notion of blackmail.

Blackmail would be a reasonable description when people seek offers from elsewhere solely to improve their salary or working conditions. I wouldn't use this term for the situation you are describing - such poor working conditions that are pushing you to look for alternative positions.

My HoD has failed to address the bullying, I don t trust any of his empty promises.

Have you tried going one step higher? If this has been tried and failed maybe it is time to move on.

Do you have people you can talk to confidentially in real life? Giving more details here would be outing but it's hard for people to comment insightfully without knowing the whole story.

The person a step higher is one before principal - neither him or the principal will deal with this.
I went to HR who will only act if I make a formal complaint, which would be career ending. I since try to minimise all interactions with the 2 main colleagues creating the toxic environment, usually successfully. I have people (other colleagues, mentors) to talk to - they all agree that the environment is not a sustainable one long term - noone is willing to put their head above the parapet. My one opportunity (albeit a not very concrete one) is a possible move internally within a different team - another promise by my head of school, to happen "sometime soon if things go well", whatever that means.

This does not sort the issues of changing management and tougher researching conditions.

But then... there are awful people and crap management possibly everywhere. My head is all over the place.

I wouldn't go on the basis of that info. Massive salary drop and upheaval for DC? When you've just been made a Professor in your uK uni? No. Stay.

I'd also not give up a secure, Professorial position, to move to another country for a fixed term contract.

Can you negotiate with the new place, say you're not willing to move for anything put a permanent Professorship?

I also wouldn't rule the whole of the UK. You say you are RG - if you're willing to look at less research-intensive Universities, you might be able to negotiate yourself a great deal.

Yes, everywhere will have their problems, but some will be considerably worse than others. I think where I currently am is on the better side - I shudder when I hear stories from other places! And feel my complaints are small in comparison.

Sounds to me like a big part is wanting to move back to the EU. Understandable but I would suggest not making such a decision under current circumstances (maybe rose tinted glasses due to not having been back for a long time). Sounds like the new job would be a step down so you could probably get similar in future if you still feel this way once COVID and brexit have settled down. Bear in mind COVID is causing similar issues across the eu.

In amongst all the rest, you say "teaching and marking has been insane". It has, but this year in particular.

As a fellow academic (though not professor!), this whole year has been awful for everyone. The teaching / marking load has been insane, the student demand for support, reassurance, assignment extensions, remarks... off the scale. We have lovely and experienced staff at the end of their ropes, and (justifiably) hacked off students giving everyone grief after they have had an experience they never wanted.

Toxic colleagues are one thing - and the biggest push factor IMO - but I wouldn't be making decisions with this year's teaching / marking load as any kind of indicator.

@murmuration - yes this worries me too. I ve requested this, but it s the way things work in that country. Professors are state appointed after an open competition and the track is like a probation.

The university is however committing in writing that the appointment will roll into such an official position opening for me (and anyone who wants to apply) on the (very specific) theme of my lab.

@MotherOfCrocodiles - thank you. Yes - heading back to the EU is a definite pull for me but also for DH. I see the lifestyle that i miss so much, and Brexit is doing my head in (toxic colleagues people have felt the need to remind me recently how grateful I should be to the UK giving me a job). Covid has stopped me seeing my elderly parents for 2 yrs (my brother who leaves in another EU country has been travelling to see them no pb).

The new uni people are so keen and so kind. Trying hard to show how great it will be, helping DH making links in his field. It would be a bit of a step down (it s still a fairly prestigious senior "fellowship", but not a professorship) - but i can actually envisage going back to the lab, doing bench work, being creative with my research, developing new methods, training students well rather than doing my best training loads. This has all gone where I am. I am a grant writing machine and a teaching machine.

thank you all so much for your replies

@SaberToothKitten - teaching my uni is hungry for these international fees (aren't they all). before COVID we were already stretched. We re now totally under water and I know you all have felt it too .

A 3 years teaching break would be sooo good. Our good people who left have been replaced by people who are better at preserving self than us OGs. They refuse to teach/mark what is, they feel, beyond their (v narrow) specialism and beyond what they feel they can do. As such, one of them refused to mark 5 undergrad dissertations last months, after having done no marking this semester. Plain no. So colleague and I did it, on
top of our respective 20, when our head told us to just "get on with it".

I m fortunate to live in a big city with a few other unis nearby... they all seem similar, with pockets of super bad behaviour, which seems rife in my field.

Oh god, we get that. Not marking / supervising the weaker students, taking teaching responsibilities then doing the minimum. The whole system of academic work is built on lousy foundations, reward and progression directly opposed to job satisfaction and 'good citizenship'.

I think if you feel good about the new place, after reading all of your updates, you should go for it.

People in the UK forget that the cost of living is often way way lower in other countries so the salary drop might not affect you. Also, it sounds like your DP would be in a better position. Add in the ease of visiting your parents and the toxic anti EU sentiment in much of the UK, and I’d be gone.

My best friend currently lives in Switzerland and has an apartment in Paris (she used to work there). Throughout Covid, she has been able to move freely between the 2. Those of us who live on the islands (I live in Ireland) forget how easy it is to travel through mainland Europe.

Go for it. I can tell you want to. I was on one of those appointing boards for a permanent academic job in the EU (Spain) a few years ago, and it was completely clear that the resident candidate was going to get the role.

How old are the children?

We have recently moved back to Europe, different circumstances. My kids were 10 and 6. We are still 4h drive away from my family, but, as PP said and unlike when we were in the UK, we can go whenever we want to (and they can and do visit us as well).

For us the financial ramifications were similar - we knew we would have a lot less money. And not every European country has lower living costs than England ...

Above the immediate concerns (Covid, travel restrictions, some other short-term push and pull factors) what really swayed us was the question of where we want our children to grow up. The quality of life where we are now is sooo much better, especially (but not only) for the children. The schools, the freedoms, the relative absence of crime/drugs (county lines), the health care ...
Most of all, in my opinion the future prospects in our new country are much better than in post-Brexit UK.

Obviously your decision is to a large extent about you and your job satisfaction. But might it help to also consider which of the two countries will provide better future prospects for your children? Depending on their age, where you go now (or where you stay now) will be their 'home' and are you happy with that?
Also, do they and your DP speak the language, if they don't then the move will be a huge challenge for them, but it could also be the making of them. Again depending a bit on the DC's ages.

How long have you been at your current place? Would it be time to move on anyway?

Good luck getting to a decision!

Thank you so much for all these excellent suggestions and insights. Much much appreciated.

Kids are 9 and 12 - they understand the language and DC1 speaks it a bit but is shy. DC2 would rather speak English, loudly if required. DP has functional level. I ve reached out to schools over there and i ve been impressed by the responses so far and how keen they have been to find solutions to help the DCs integrate of we move.

Of course, to go visit, i now need to be dble jabbed, which is a headache since i ve just managed to get vax 2 weeks ago. But i really need to go and have a feel for the place. I must say I have good days full of optimism for my future in the UK and at the uni, and not so good days following interactions with either colleagues or a special govt blunder. I wish i could "think like a man" and remove emotions out of the equation.

I need to cancel the trip. My 2nd dose could not be moved early enough, so it will need to be a zoom call. This is so depressing and probably won't afford me the answer i need.

i ve been at my current place for v long - 15 years, initially as a senior postdoc. However there has been a wind of change in the last 2 weeks which makes me hopeful.

Still, the prospect of DCs growing up in the culture I knew as a child remains a strong pull, despite knowing that them integrating as non-fluent speakers would be very hard.

COVID might be the one giving me all the answers though. I could not move without the family moving at the same time, and timescales are against us.