Can this possibly be done? Advice needed

[RobinHobb]

To be as succinct as possible: I have an undergrad in maths and computer science, but wanted to do a degree in biology. I couldn't afford to do it, so got a job in finance and became an accountant and got promoted and kept at it...10 years later, did a degree from OU while working/maternity leave, completely loved it (87%). Did a part time masters degree from high rated medical uni in London (89%). Absolutely loved it (quit full time finance midway).

So I love this stuff. I did it mostly while kids slept and in evenings (2 under 5) and the 15 hours. Finances are not an issue as DH earns well and is super supportive.

I applied for a PhD. Didn't think it would happen the way it did, but I landed a studentship at a very prestigious biomedical research institution in London. Still shocked.

I've accepted and we have hired a full time nanny to join us for when I start.

But...For anyone who has done a PhD and who works in a lab/and has young kids...this is where I need advice:

Was it ok? Did you manage to get home and see your kids? How much control will I have of my own hours? In finance it was ok, I could work from home and in hours that were convenient for me because I was senior enough, but now I'll be a lowly PhD student! For example, I'd do 7am to 3pm often which worked really well for me, but would I need to work around my supervisors hours?

I guess I'm nervous. I'm not young (well not in my 20s!) and I don't even know what to wear everyday to work in a lab (it'll be covered by the coat anyway). I don't know what to expect.

Any help or advice or suggestions are very appreciated....

Maybe I posted this in the wrong place and I should have put it in higher education!

you are posting in the right place.

I supervise science PhDs in a London university. The answers to your questions are very dependent on your lab. Some supervisors are very flexible and let you choose your own hours entirely (I let all my students do this). But in other labs, the supervisor could be stricter or there could be resources that can only be used at certain times of day (e.g. booking certain hours to use electronic microscope or MRI scanner). So you have to be flexible enough to work in the available hours. And I think that some projects (e.g. biochemistry) require long hours just to oversee the implementation of specific experiments.

So talk to your supervisor about her/his expectations. A good supervisor should be able to work out a schedule that will work for you.

Thank you @parietal That's really helpful -appreciate you responding.

I've interviewed with my supervisor and talked to her team. She seems great and very supportive and her team who I also talked to seemed like a good bunch of guys.

I definitely have not spoken to her about things like expectations regarding hours: it didn't seem relevant at interview obviously and now I'm a little scared to have that conversation until I officially start in September. I will talk to her then.

It's not that I'm scared of long hours or hard work: this comes with the territory but I do want to be home some evenings in the week to see the kids. I guess I'm hoping I can plan things to get in early (6-7am) and leave early, or kind of sort things out how works best for me/experiments. It's phd in a biology/immunology/cancer field (I'm being vague here) and I know I'm hostage to time it takes to do experiments.

I'm apprehensive as I have no idea what to expect from the day to day of a PhD. I am also suffering from massive imposter syndrome: I didn't think they would ever offer me the positive with my random background and lack of relevant experience so having a wobble. This is compounded with some severe "mummy" guilt (which makes no sense, but the little one is super clingy after a year of me at home).

Thanks for replying

would I need to work around my supervisors hours?

Sorry, that actually made me LOL. You'll find academics are rather feral. You may not even see your supervisor for months. If you can get on with the work independently and competently your supervisor will be overjoyed to leave you to it. They won't care if you want to work 7am-3pm. You will feel very "unmanaged".

(non-covid times) Our labs are deserted 5/6pm-9am. yes there can be the odd late night working on experiments, but they are unusual not daily. I'm not a lab rat, I just work with them. Every lab has its own culture & some seem to be quite grumpy & badly managed. I hope yours is run with clear simple rules about space, equipment & resources that keep all the bench folk happy.

Some teams have regular coffee meetings for the shared group researchers, say 10:30am every Tuesday. Unlikely to be compulsory attendance. Non-existent in covid times.

There should be a detailed PG induction process at your institution.

@MedSchoolRat

Thank you for responding!
That's really reassuring what you say about the labs being empty by 5/6pm. It's what is expect. But have also heard stories of PhD students bringing in sleeping bags into the lab.

Regarding supervision yes, I have heard this. Not seeing the supervisor for months is also not ideal! As a newbie with little to no experience I won't really know what to do if I am just left to it. But I guess I will figure it out.

There is a week of induction in September, and loads of seminars and training and all this. I think I supposed to sit down with my supervisor and the thesis committee in October to discuss my project plan for the year and hopefully that will help me feel more in control.

Thank you!

Congratulations on what you have achieved and your PhD studentship- this seems a great direction for you! I don't know much about lab culture in the UK, I know it can be pretty intensive in the US but here I think independent working is highly valued, I guess you will have to be led by your supervisors/their team.

In terms of age, I didn't finish my PhD til just past mid-thirties, with two children in tow (I had two during the PhD itself). I won't pretend it was easy, but if you have financial support that will make a huge difference, having a nanny is fantastic, and of course a supportive partner is great as well.

Clothes wise, scientists are not usually vain and I'd say as long as you are clean and tidy no-one will care about day to day clothing, having said that I've worked with academics who don't even manage that! Jeans and tops and ordinary casual clothing is usually ok, again, pick up the culture when you are there but it won't be as formal as accounting for sure.

Good luck with it all, I'd love to hear how you get on.

Congratulations on your PhD position! As others have said, academia is pretty relaxed regarding things like hours, but it is also dependent on your supervisor. I have had new PhD students ask me about working hours, and I have thought nothing of it: I just tell them to do the work as they see fit, that they should treat it like a full time job and put in about that many hours, but how they manage it is up to them. I am more interested in what they do, than how many hours spent at it (although I do want to hear about lots of hours spent not getting useful results - we'd then talk about if there was something different to pursue). I also mention that they can expect me to work normal working hours and not on weekends, so they can't expect feedback evenings/weekends. With laboratories there may be scheduling things for equipment as mentioned above. If you mention need to work around childcare concerns, I would expect this to be fine.

I do recommend getting in touch with current lab members: you can ask what things are like, what hours people work, etc. I always try to make sure prospective PhDs get some time alone with my current PhDs/postdocs without me looking over their shoulder, but it wasn't possible with covid this year (although I did pass out email addresses).

Regarding clothes: people just wear what they are comfortable in. Most people pick casual-fading-to-business-casual, but there are occasional people who always come in in their heavy metal T-shirts and others who wear suits and no one thinks anything of it. If you're doing lab work, just make sure to wear clothes that are appropriate for that: no flowing sleeves, no open-toed shoes, no hanging strings that can get caught in centrifuges, etc.

I'm not a lab scientist, so can't really comment from direct experience about lab hours. I have seen colleagues working long hours on some experiments, but that's very occasional and planned in advance. I normally work 9-13 then 5-8 because that's when I'm productive. I've never had a boss who cared what particular hours I work and I like to go for a run and do shopping in daylight. Even before covid, I only went to the office 3 days a week, primarily because there was a lunchtime gym class near home I really liked! I always went for meetings and seminars and got the work done though.

I have seen students sleeping in the office, but generally there is something else going on there and it really really shouldn't be happening. It's generally things like poor housing, a relationship breakdowns or sometimes time differences so they want to call home and might as well work while they're waiting for family to wake up. Very occasionally it happens because of work, but the few times I've seen it, it's been because of shockingly bad management (should have been disciplined levels of bad) and communication breakdown, sometimes with a dose of conflicting cultural expectations. You have a major advantage there: you're older, wiser and have business experience, so should be able to spot if things aren't working much earlier so that it never gets anywhere near that point.

@SignsofSpring
Thank you! Appreciate this. It's really good to hear this from someone who has finished a PhD with two small kids in tow: that's my main concern regarding this, strangely. I have worked for a fair few years before (albeit in a completely different profession) and I know all things have their ups and downs, but I'm worried about navigating with two young children. To add to the complexity, we live in Surrey, so my commute to the lab would be around 60 minutes one way on a good day.
But thank you for the encouragement: I'm prepared for it being hard, good to know it's been done and its doable.

@murmuration

Thank you! This is reassuring, and sounds like excellent advice.
During the interview stage, my supervisor did set up a meeting with her team (on Zoom), she stayed for the first 20 minutes, and then left me to chat with the team for the rest of the time. I have to say, they all seemed a nice bunch of guys: two of them had just finished their first year of PhD. But they were all guys, in the 20s and 30s - I think the thought of kids and schools runs (and covid school bubbles popping) is so far remote from them as to be on another planet. My supervisor herself, seems very nice, and understanding and they were full of praise for her.

I am hoping to suggest 7am to 3pm to her, and she has no issue with this. We are getting a nanny, and eldent is in reception so I hope kids/childcare issues won't be too (I hope). Fingers crossed.

Thank you for the advice.

[quote RobinHobb]@murmuration

Thank you! This is reassuring, and sounds like excellent advice.
During the interview stage, my supervisor did set up a meeting with her team (on Zoom), she stayed for the first 20 minutes, and then left me to chat with the team for the rest of the time. I have to say, they all seemed a nice bunch of guys: two of them had just finished their first year of PhD. But they were all guys, in the 20s and 30s - I think the thought of kids and schools runs (and covid school bubbles popping) is so far remote from them as to be on another planet. My supervisor herself, seems very nice, and understanding and they were full of praise for her.

I am hoping to suggest 7am to 3pm to her, and she has no issue with this. We are getting a nanny, and eldent is in reception so I hope kids/childcare issues won't be too (I hope). Fingers crossed.

Thank you for the advice.[/quote]
*eldest is in reception, so I hope kids/childcare issues won't be too troublesome

@lekkerkroketje

Thank you!
I hope so! I'm a bit new at this lab stuff so not sure I would be able to see problems coming, but I'm usually very organised (once I know what I'm doing), and i'm a bit of planner, so hopefully this means I can sort things out. With my old job, I used to work 7am to 3pm, and then in the evenings at home from 7pm to 9pm (i had clients in the US so this worked well and I spent a good chunk of the day with the kids).

I am hoping once I have found my feet I can find a balance between work and still spending some time with the kids which is my main concern....

Thank you :-)

Thank you for your posts everyone!!