3years post PhD...should I give up?

[itto]

I just had a negative answer for a post-doc application so I am feeling very deflated. I am about 3 years post PhD, in a quite niche humanities topic but can possibly work in a number of different departments. No teaching experience in higher education (although some secondary/ A-levels). I have very young children hence haven't really been able to apply for jobs and opportunities until now, and also have to stay around London. I'm trying to keep up with my own research and I have some publications lined up. I had a job offer pre-covid to do some tutoring in a uni course, which at least would have enabled me to make some new contacts, but this was basically cancelled. I am just not earning a penny from this and it's not sustainable!! Please advise experienced ladies: should I give up? Are there particular opportunities I can apply for? What should I be doing? Many of the academics I worked with have left and I don't know where to seek advise.

are you aiming to stay in academia after a postdoc or to do something else?

I'm in science but my impression is that it is v v hard to get a permanent position in humanities. There can be temporary jobs like tutoring but they are not enough to keep you going and often don't lead to a long term job. There just aren't enough permanent university jobs compared to the number of people getting PhDs. Even in sciences, only 5% of people who get a PhD go on to a get a lectureship.

I'd guess that either you need a mentor / inside track / some support from within a department to position yourself for an academic job. And if that isn't possible, it might be better to cut your loses now and look outside academia.

I say this with a heavy heart because academia is marvellous when it works. But when it doesn't, it can suck the life out of enthusiastic hard working postdocs and then spit them out with nothing.

I would definitely have preferred to stay in academia, even if it means short-term contracts for a while, but you are right, it is going to be extremely difficult to find any kind of position in my field and in the current climate!

What’s your ideal job- lecturing or research? An upside to the pandemic is that you could work remotely on a research project for a university anywhere in the country. I have managed to find a job post phd but actually had a lot of years of research experience prior to my PhD too. I feel rather ambivalent about academia though - it’s hard and I sometimes wish was able to do my job not in a uni.

I'm in Arts/Hums. I'm 6 and a half years postdoc, and haven't got a permanent position. A friend of mine got hers when she was about ten years postdoc. I just asked the exact same question as you on the big academics chat thread a few weeks ago, and got some really encouraging replies.

I obviously don't know all the answers (or I would have a job, right ), but from my perspective, here's what helped keep going:

• get in touch with academics who have similar interests and see if they'll support you. Eg., email someone whose work you love and engaged with in one of your papers, or go to an online talk (there are free ones out there). Basically network like crazy to replace the people who've moved on.

• widen your search to outside London for research postdocs. I am currently a postdoc fellow outside the UK, only patently, I am not. Covid means none of us can bank on being able to travel, and research-only postdocs may well not require a lot of travel even if things start easing up. Even before covid, I was getting a plane out once a week and that was fine (my DD was two when I started but I have a partner - do you have support?).

• is OU hiring in your area? I've no experience with them but lots of people say they're great to work with.

I think @parietal is right it's extremely hard to get a permanent post; on the other hand, I would say very, very, very few people who get permanent posts in Arts/Hums get them three years postdoc.

I am fine with either research or teaching, I always expected that I would have to do both at different stages. I completely understand what you mean Sarah about permanent jobs. I am not expecting to find something now, but I just don't know what I should be doing in the meantime! How do you get teaching experience? Should I email people even if they have no vacancies advertised? Should I try to publish as much as possible? How do you find suitable fellowships? I must have missed something in my studies, I didn't receive much advice and I really don't have a clue where to start. I am married but husband works all hours and I have no other family around, so support rather limited!

Well, I had teaching experience through my PhD (minimal) and then landed a teaching-only job, so I have teaching experience coming out of my ears, which is a mixed blessing because you lose out on research.

In my subject area, getting a bit of teaching ad hoc is dependent on your network, but lots of places that don't have a formal vacancy will have spare bits of teaching they need, and it really is about asking and asking and networking. So you might find a university wants someone to cover a course for an hour a week - that won't be advertised as a vacancy, but you could ask about it. It will pay peanuts.

I always look for fellowships on jobs.ac.uk which has everything, pretty much, except some funding calls.

Have you looked at Leverhulme/BA/that sort of thing? For those it's often a matter of approaching a senior colleague/contact at a university and asking if they'd be prepared to sponsor your application. They may also put out a general call on jobs.ac.uk for fellowship applications.

But I don't think you've missed something - IME very few supervisors bother to train their PhDs in this area, because they either think it's all very obvious (it isn't), or because when you ask 'what jobs are going, I can't find any, what am I missing?' their honest answer is 'there's currently nothing out there'.

We’ve never advertised hourly paid teaching. It’s a case of either using our own PhD students or getting people through word of mouth. You could try emailing your CV to relevant departments—although it may well be the case that departments have cut back on paying for additional teaching due to the financial impact of Covid. My department usually hires people to teach tutorials in the big modules, but all of that has been cut this year.

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer, it's very useful for me to understand how unis recruit. Honestly I'd be happy with just a few hours of teaching even if it pays nothing, I just want to keep in the loop. With very young kids I would struggle with a full time job this year anyway. The BA is the one I was just rejected from, the uni I applied through didn't support the Leverhulme one. What about visiting researchers/ fellows kind of positions, would that help build up my CV?

BA's very competitive.

In my field, if you're an unpaid visiting researcher/fellow, it's mostly about keeping your library access and showing you're still serious - the CV benefit would be it shows you're networking with people. But if it might get you teaching, surely it'd be good?

I am really not sure if it's helpful for me to reply here, because I feel so conscious I haven't got a job - I'm only continuing in case it's useful to hear from someone in a similar field and at a similar career stage. So please say (and please other posters say) if I am being unhelpful.

What sort of scholar do you want to be? Do you need a significant income? If you can tread water for a couple of years, focus on publications. Everything else is a nice extra.

Could you rework your BA proposal for the AHRC?

However - if you do need an income, I would look at your wider skills and pivot. London is a good location for that.

It's not the career it was! Many of us are striving for a career path that existed in the 1960s and we're in denial it's gone.

My cleverest friends with a rich intellectual life are not academics.

What does a rich intellectual life (whatever that means) have to do with anything?

I'm sorry if I sound rude, but I'm just utterly confused why you'd ask someone on a forum that's about jobs, whether or not they need an income.

I agree with the thing about people with rich intellectual lives not being an academic, at least in the UK. In fact I was thinking this to myself the other day... I think it is a valid thing to consider. Why do you want to be an academic? Love of your subject and a hunger to do more research? That you inherently like all aspects of the job? To teach? To be in an intellectually stimulating environment? That will help you figure out whether it’s worth sticking it out.

The job market in the humanities is shit anyway, but throw in Covid and it’s even more dire. Our recent recruits (in a humanities dept) to entry level lecturer posts have already published their first monograph and a bunch of other stuff. So I think that building up your publications is key. The dept wants to know that you’re ‘REFable’ and that your research (current and proposed) fits with the dept’s needs and trajectories. That and that you can teach what they need covered and are capable of carrying out the admin roles that need filling.

@SarahAndQuack academia is heaving with people who are supported by a partner, so I don’t think it’s an unreasonable question to ask as it will determine what kind of options are viable.

[quote CityDweller]@SarahAndQuack academia is heaving with people who are supported by a partner, so I don’t think it’s an unreasonable question to ask as it will determine what kind of options are viable.[/quote]
Ah, see, I didn't realise you were asking if she had a partner.

I have a partner who supports me, but like most people, I still need a significant income - it's pretty rare you can do without two people's incomes, isn't it?

I have to make do on one income but not by choice! I don't live in London though, where I don't think one academic income would be enough to have even quite a basic level of living once you have children/bigger needs than for one person.

The thing with this is- I've seen it go both ways, I've seen friends keep going, have a few publications but not really get anywhere and duck back out- into teaching (at college level), into uni admin, out of academia into the private sector. Equally, others have done ok. Our last lecturer came with a monograph, many many high level (4*) pubs and was about 8 years post-doc. Some of these people are better qualified than me!

It's worth seeing if anyone does want sessional lecturing though- there's a contraction in terms of permanent posts, but we are still short of GTA type work, there are lecturers who are going off sick/chaos in the system due to lockdown, it never hurts to ask. I'd send a CV in with a list of the type of thing you could teach in the email to the head of department or director of education or programmes, you may just fill a niche they are struggling with right now.

Sorry, @Poppingnostopping, you're right and I should rephrase - it's rare you can choose to do without two incomes.

I don't think anyone who's not independently wealthy can decide to have their spouse earn the money.

If you find good-quality temporary teaching, paid at a good rate, covering an area you know inside out and where the course has been written for you, including slides and discussion materials - ideal.

Most casual teaching isn't that. The system's exploitative, so just be very clear about what it is you will get out of it, and whether it will get you closer to a good post.

I'm sorry for being insensitive above.

Sorry, I was probably too quick to object, too, and I'm sure it's all useful for the OP.

So much useful advice on here, thank you everyone. Some very valid questions. I enjoy both research and teaching, but I suppose the main attraction of an academic life would be the university environment and yes, a stimulating intellectual life. It's not so much about the income right now as I am doing some freelance work and my children are so young. I suppose I would be happy to keep working on my own research and do unpaid or low paid work for a bit if I can fit that around family life, but in a few years I would need to have my own income. Sarah, it is definitely useful to hear about your experience, I feel less alone! Most of the people I knew in academia have left the UK or work in a different field. I am going to check out the AHRC. Thank you again everyone!

haven't really been able to apply for jobs and opportunities until now, and also have to stay around London. I'm trying to keep up with my own research and I have some publications lined up

A couple of issues:

Mobility - you will need to go where the jobs or opportunities are, or be prepared to commute or do an overnight each week. Not such an issue for a postdoc role, unless it's on someone's project eg a postdoc on a UKRI or EU-funded research project run by a PI. And then you may be expected to be in a certain place at a certain time - although we're all learning to run things differently now (thanks, C-19) - my postdoc lives in the nearest big city to where I am based, and we Zoom meet, but when they were doing some teaching (CV building) they were commuting 2-3 days a week. And frankly, most departments & research projects are so pushed, that I expect people to turn up, if they are needed, wherever they actually live.

Publications - put some energy into getting stuff published. This will make a difference re applications for jobs and postdocs.

For a research & teaching job, in my part of the arts & humanities (cognate with EngLit) you'd need teaching experience, even if just as a GTA. You wouldn't be shortlisted for either a fixed-term or permanent post without it. We give our current Doctoral students opportunities for teaching as a CV building thing as much as to help them financially (as I had to explain to one of mine who worked out he'd earn more per hour in a bar job - and we pay them for prep and for attending the module lectures as well as their actual teaching time).

Most of my former PhD students who are in jobs have done a mix of undergrad teaching, Teaching Fellowship jobs - fixed term, teaching only contracts, often part-time.

Can you think about building your research network? This helps in terms of motivation and cameraderie, apart from anything else, but also in terms of mentorship & advice:

• Is there a major conference in your field which you can attend regularly? It would be worth offering a paper - you'll get feedback & make connections. And don't just turn up for your session and then leave - it's rude. But more importantly, go to everything and make your networks of people you like to play with - well, that's the way I look at it! - people who's research I like & whom I like as people make great collaborators and supporters, IME. Think of it as an investment in your future. Some scholarly associations/learned societies offer bursaries for Early Career Researchers (ECRs) and/or independent scholars.

• Does your PhD department run seminars, research groups, writing groups - place where you can collaborate with others (we're not actually lone scholars in the humanities, whatever people think).

IME very few supervisors bother to train their PhDs in this area, because they either think it's all very obvious (it isn't), or because when you ask 'what jobs are going, I can't find any, what am I missing?' their honest answer is 'there's currently nothing out there'.

Can I offer another perspective?

I have one former PhD student who was not really qualified by the whole of their CV to gain academic employment in my discipline or its cognate. I said this to them very straightforwardly in our first 6 month review and suggested other areas (museum curation/research areas) where they would be far better qualified with their previous work, first degree & Masters, and then the PhD topic they were undertaking with me (it was part of an AHRC-funded project back in the day when you could add a PhD studentship to your large grant application). I was very direct, and suggested taking up intern opportunities, training etc offered through our institution.

However, at our annual review, this student told me that all they were interested in was an academic post, not museum work (or other suggestions I had made which are good careers for a Humanities PhD) and what teaching could I offer them? I asked what modules in our department they could participate in or teach in - but they had not actually looked at our curriculum ...

I had another PhD student who is currently in a fixed-term post, but is refusing to contemplate moving, relocation, or even weekly commuting (I suspect it's a tricky partner, sadly, but I don't pry). I worry for them - I know they are anxious as their contract finishes in about a year, but there's only limited advice I can give, if there's a flat-out refusal - at the moment - to contemplate applying for a job that would take them away from home for longer than a day. I knew that there was already a difficulty about attending conferences away from home when they were a PhD student.

So, some of us do try! And most universities nowadays offer an array of training sessions or workshops or seminars about alt.academia. But if a PhD student is adamant that they want an academic post - well, all you can do is advise, and then they have to learn.

@QueenoftheAir - I do see you feel a bit criticised! It wasn't intended to be a dig.

I think saying honestly 'you are not qualified for a job and you've done nothing to make yourself competitive' is really helpful. What I have seen a lot of is vague encouragement ('of course, apply for a JRF, why no, no harm ...'), which feels nice but isn't that useful.

I know some supervisors work very hard, as individuals, to advise their students. But I suppose what I mean is, I don't see there being a culture of 'professionalising' PhD candidates the way there is in the US. Some universities/departments/individuals may do it, but others don't.

It's a dilemma, isn' it @SarahAndQuack ? I think the PhD student with whom I was direct - but tried to help constructively - saw this as me not being supportive, and felt they lacked confidence in conversation with me, although I'm actually very approachable IRL (it may not seem it here! ).

I know as a supervisor, that I need to be attentive to a PhD student's frame of mind and to balance being straightforward & honest, with not undermining their self-confidence. So, I can sort of see why someone might have advised you to apply for a JRF if you were even half-way eligible.

I suppose my compromise is that I say to people who want me to sponsor a BA/Leverhulme ECF, Yes! (if they're a good candidate) and then my next sentence is "But you know the success rate is only about 15% and the BA only allows you to apply once."

(I tend actively to discourage anyone I supervise from going for a JRF because they are really very much inward looking in terns of awards to Oxbridge PhDs/DPhils. It's s very rare that anyone outside of Oxbridge lands one - this could be my prejudice, of course - I'd love to be proven wrong!).

But I've had perfectly sensible PhD students in the situation of the OP say "Oh but no-one ever told me ...!"

And I tend to think to myself (I don't say) - "Yes, we did offer this information/training/workshops; but you weren't interested then, so didn't notice it, in the way that you think you need the information now."

Very human, of course, but it needs to be acknowledged.

But gah! I'm sounding increasingly defensive ...

Oh, the JRF encouragement wasn't me, it was another student. My supervisor simply assumed I knew how to apply for jobs and when to apply, right up until I was just about to graduate, when she suggested I apply for a permanent lectureship 'for the practice'.

It wasn't her fault - she just thought it was really obvious how you applied for things, I think. And I didn't know you could ask about these things.

I genuinely do think there's a problem of unknown unknowns. Yes, sure, there may be a training workshop - but if you don't know you need to look for those, how would you find out you needed to look? Yes, your supervisor might be ready to discuss the subject, but if they never raise it, do you know they were ready? Etc.

I do see it from both sides to some extent (my former student just got her first postdoc and I've written references for her for several years; I try to advise my MPhils about PhDs and so on). And obviously I see that no one wants to feel unacknowledged. It is hugely frustrating if you feel you've told someone quite plainly what they need to do, and they persist in refusing to do it while continuing to expect the same outcome.

And no, you're not sounding defensive at all.