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University staff common room

This board is for university-based professionals. Find discussions about A Levels and universities on our Further education forum.

students as "customers"

30 replies

openwaterswimming · 24/11/2020 14:54

A colleague said to me that we need to "ensure good customer service, the customers being our students".
I guess on a base level she's right (they have paid to do this course and I deliver a service which is to teach them the topic) but something about it made my stomach churn. It's not the first time someone has spoken in this language and I'm wondering -
am I terribly out of date here? I'm new to academia/lecturing so maybe I'm naïve as I thought it was a different kind of relationship...I'm not even sure what kind. When I was a student I didn't think of myself as having purchased a service, maybe I should have done....
Is this progress or some weird cooption of business language into education? I'd love to hear your opinions.

OP posts:
bibliomania · 25/11/2020 08:57

They're legally classed as consumers, which give them specific rights under consumer law. I think those consumer entitlements are fair enough - basically, they shouldn't be offered one thing and get another.

I'm sometimes amused by individuals who want more for their money (complain if a class is cancelled) but don't necessarily want what they're given (poor attendance).

JacobReesMogadishu · 27/11/2020 19:30

I’ve had two students in the last fortnight send me emails saying they don’t think they’re getting value for money. Both have pointed out how much they’re paying for the course (70k for one of them apparently, I’m assuming that includes living costs/halls). They don’t think they’re getting enough support, enough teaching, would like more face to face teaching and basically could I please pull my socks up! 🙄😒

So yes, the students very much see themselves as having bought a service. I think some expect that they’ve bought an actual degree, quite possibly a 1st.

ErrolTheDragon · 27/11/2020 19:37

They're legally classed as consumers, which give them specific rights under consumer law. I think those consumer entitlements are fair enough - basically, they shouldn't be offered one thing and get another.

It's fine if they're getting a genuinely equivalent education.

So yes, the students very much see themselves as having bought a service. I think some expect that they’ve bought an actual degree, quite possibly a 1st.

The first is fine, the second obviously isn't. Buying a set of weights doesn't buy you a toned body let alone a place on a podium.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 27/11/2020 19:41

Well yes, they are customers. This was bound to happen when universities starting rinsing students for maximum tuition fees and overpriced, often shoddy accommodation.

user1497207191 · 27/11/2020 19:52

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Well yes, they are customers. This was bound to happen when universities starting rinsing students for maximum tuition fees and overpriced, often shoddy accommodation.
Yes, it was inevitable and entirely foreseeable. Back in the day before tuition fees and when accommodation costs were cheap, students just put up with it - after all, they had put up with school which is often hit and miss as to quality of teachers etc. But when students are paying £9250 per year for the tuition, then they are right to expect value for money, and sadly, at the moment, being stuck in tiny flats spending all day watching videos of past lectures with the occasional new "live" lecture or tutorial just doesn't cut it. My son has only had 2 face to face sessions this term, and both of those were with PHD students leading. He's already been researching online for distance learning courses for an equivalent professional qualification and the reputable major providers are offering remote learning options at a fraction of that price. He's really wondering what is the point of being at Uni and could well decide not to return after Christmas at all. Student satisfaction rankings are going to plummet for some universities in the next round of surveys etc.
MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 27/11/2020 20:16

As a parent, I'm really not impressed with the way my son's university has conducted itself this year - a no detriment Covid policy which actually was detrimental and seemingly little communication between department members when it comes to assigning work. My child has paid full whack despite strike action from staff before the Covid outbreak.
Ordinarily parents wouldn't have a clue what's going on but now that our kids are actually home all the time we are looking more closely at what they are doing and what we/they are paying for.
I get the feeling that the tutors feel undervalued by their employers and as if they have no voice, so even when the students aren't happy, the ability of tutors to help much is limited.
I'm honestly not surprised that kids feel they aren't getting full value right now.

ErrolTheDragon · 27/11/2020 20:30

Maybe there will be a shakeup and some unis/courses will have to adjust their pricing to reflect their 'market value'. My DDs course is doing a decent job under the circumstances, and her lecturers didn't take strike action last year or the time before.

Poppingnostopping · 27/11/2020 20:57

a no detriment Covid policy which actually was detrimental

I wonder if this is the university I work at! Can I ask in what way the policy ended up detrimental? I'm sure it could, I am just intrigued as to how I guess.

As lecturers I know we pretty much gave our all to students this term, but I know from the student perspective it wasn't a smooth experience, IT issues, some lecturers struggled to cope with the new formats, uploading captioned videos was vastly more time-consuming than before. I have recorded all new videos though, 22 of the little buggers (divided into 2 so 44). Plus some extras. That was a LOT of extra work in a very short time frame.

Poppingnostopping · 27/11/2020 20:59

I think it would be good for the sector though if students get fussier about presentation/technology and so forth. It's one thing to bodge a term in unexpected times, but as we move forward, students are right to expect better IT, better presentation (not Panopto) and a better student experience if we are going to stay online, given their fees. What's frustrating about this is that it really isn't in the individual lecturer's control to sort most of this out.

LindaEllen · 27/11/2020 21:18

When I was at university, I was very aware of how much I was paying for my course, and often felt that I deserved more from certain tutors.

Some were absolutely amazing, but for some the lectures would involve reading from a simple PowerPoint presentation (and not expanding on the points that were written) and then asking us to discuss in groups for half an hour .. which was a bit useless as we didn't have a great deal of information or any way to get more information (it would have been better if we'd been in the library, for example).

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 27/11/2020 21:28

Popping DS was assured that no student would receive a worse grade than in the previous term, so long as they didn't actually fail an exam. But the uni constantly delayed giving any meaningful information as to how the exams would work. They also had to work out what to do about the work missed due to strike action. Some kids missed more classes than others during the strikes, depending on their timetable. He ended sitting exams in a house that was full of kids and people working from home. He dropped some marks and the uni just fobbed him off with meaningless repetition about their policy, insisting it is no detriment,even though he can clearly see that he has been negatively affected.
He will be competing for jobs with people whose unis actually did operate no detriment policies. I can see why he's pissed off tbh. I want to formally complain but don't know where to start.

Poppingnostopping · 27/11/2020 21:40

That sounds absolutely rubbish. I know as a minimum that we had to remove any questions on exam papers that covered strike material, it was a nightmare doing this quickly but you can't test what they weren't taught.

The problem of taking tests at home online where there are other people, kids, dogs, is the problem with all online learning. It sounds great if the student has a private quiet room to study or take exams, and a nice stable enjoyable homelife with parents. That's not the reality for some students. I have some who are choosing to stay at uni over Christmas just for simple reasons like small children in the house which distract them. Online is not the panacea for learning that some people were predicting. Another big issue is student internet connectivity, some of the halls were bad, many have poor connectivity at home.

Our uni has allowed for a lot of extensions on coursework and deferrals of exams this year, this does make it harder for us to continue marking substantially out of the usual deadlines but I think it's fair enough.

Could you start with the Student Guild? I wouldn't be surprised if a few students sue their universities for mis-representing what they were going to receive or failing to deliver the product....

JacobReesMogadishu · 27/11/2020 21:47

Personally I think the students on my course are getting the best possible experience they can under current circumstances.

They get 3 hrs face to face a week. They get exactly the same sessions as in non covid times the difference is they’re online, not face to face. But I do them all live, and record the live sessions. The majority of the live sessions have break out activities to try and engage them/active learning.,....and far more meaningful than discuss a topic. So each group would be given a specific task or scenario and then have to feedback to the wider group.

I do weekly live drop in, optional support sessions. And once a fortnight an evening drop in session incase that’s easier for some.

I do agree that they are paying decent money and should get a decent service/course/teaching. Some though do have unrealistic expectations.

So the current first years I made it very clear that they are expected to read for a degree. If they have 18 hrs of teaching a week then I’d expect them to fill a good proportion of the rest of their time reading around a subject they’ve been taught that week. I do sept directed post session reading/an activity for the majority of my sessions, sometimes pre session reading as well. It’s very clearly laid out in folders in blackboard what they need to do. One student said he wanted me to change their timetable so every hour of the 9-5 week was filled so he knew what independent study he should be doing at what precise time! Hmmm, no!

Porridgeoat · 27/11/2020 21:53

The care industry and nhs are the same. It used to be that education and care was given to everyone, bog standard, one size fits all approach. Now it’s person centred approach means the service users are empowered and have choice with individual needs and options well considered. This is a win win often as it means that individuals are more likely to be happier with outcomes and providers are more likely to achieve best outcomes for individuals. This in turn knocks on to ofsted and CQC inspection results, enabling providers to demonstrate they are caring, responsive, effective. Good CQC inspection results in turn make a provider very attractive to potential new service users, securing a good reputation, growth and finances.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 27/11/2020 22:02

To be fair, they did take out questions that related to classes affected by the strikes. But it's stressful to feel that you are missing information that might have been important, to not know exactly what the procedures are with regard to exams, and that communication being repeatedly delayed. To not know how you will be fairly assessed. And of course, trying to concentrate at home while your nana tries to face time you because she's forgotten you have an exam and your dad is making work calls in the next room etc.
I know the tutors have also had to adapt and it's hard for everyone. But it would be nice if universities could stick to promises - not only about big things like no detriment policies but things like not giving deadlines on consecutive days (which they assured students would never happen). It gives the impression that no one is talking to each other within departments.
I don't know - my impression is that the staff are not happy. If they felt valued and had a good employer, they wouldn't have been striking. Some people are doing very well out of this system and I get the feeling it isn't students or tutors.
Thanks for the advice about the student guild. I will talk to DS about it.

Poppingnostopping · 27/11/2020 22:03

JacobReesMogadishu I would agree, my students are getting a lot of contact time, some campus, some online, lots of input, tailored lectures, additional office hours, I have personally answered so many more emails this term, just because students seem to need more reassurance and support with work, let alone emotional issues.

My beef is some of our tech hasn't been up to scratch at times, it wasn't built to cope with 20,000 odd students all using it at the same time and so the systems have strained. Add to that students own issues with tech and I don't think we are all totally ready for fully online teaching. That's not down to the lecturers, nor even to the uni sector, we don't have super-fast broadband everywhere in the Uk and even if we did, if we all sit home and use it at the same time, the system is problematic. More investment was needed earlier, some countries have achieved this (South Korea for example).

We are crawling towards this and home-working though!

Pota2 · 28/11/2020 11:28

I completely understand why parents on this thread are disappointed at the Covid response from universities and feel it’s not delivering value for money.

It’s worth saying re the fees though that this is not an ordinary loan in that the majority of students graduating now will never pay it off and it will be eventually be wiped. There is no upfront cost for tuition and repayment is linked to salary so it needs to be viewed as a graduate tax rather than justifying a demand that you must get a course ‘worth £9,250’.

The other thing is that the hike in tuition fees has not meant a huge increase in income for universities because public funding was withdrawn. Lecturers have not had huge pay rises. There will be people teaching your children who are being paid less than minimum wage on hourly paid lectureships that only pay a set amount for marking and preparation. Many universities have hugely increased staff to student ratios and it’s simply impossible for me to give the same level of attention to each student when I have 75 of them rather than 25. I of course have no control over the numbers recruited.

What I will say is that students today are less motivated to do self-directed learning. In seminars, a large proportion will not have done the reading and instead expect me to simply ‘teach’ them. I give an enormous amount of help with assessments, basically telling the students how to answer the question. When I was at university, there was none of this and we genuinely had to figure it out for ourselves.

There has been a move towards grade inflation in recent years. Students feel entitled to at least a 2.1 due to the fees, and the numbers who achieve this have gone through the roof, all while resources have been cut back and studies show that students are spending an average of just 14 hours a week on their studies, often because they have to work part-time. For context, I studied at a RG university in the mid 00s and spent about 35 hours of self-study and 5 hours of classroom-based learning every week. I worked full time in paid work during university holidays and lived very frugally. My students barely read beyond the textbook today, yet expect first class marks (and are more likely to get them than what I was). If you are accustomed to this teacher-led style of learning, then the current set-up during the pandemic will be extremely unsatisfactory.

FWIW, I disagree with many of my colleagues who claim that online learning is great and that the students are getting a fantastic education nonetheless. I think staff should be teaching face to face unless they are clinically vulnerable and I think online learning in the way it is delivered currently is an extremely substandard alternative. I would be angry too as a student and I am angry at healthy colleagues who are at low risk from Covid refusing to teach on campus and harming their students’ education as a result.

However, for the complaints about high fees, you must target the government who imposed them, not the lecturers. You will never get a course with teaching ‘worth 9,250’. Your money will go on staff, buildings, professional support, libraries, halls of residence, maintenance and all manner of things. Teaching will be a very small part of what you pay for. It’s always been this way but used to be paid for by the government so it was never noticeable.

Alethiometrical · 28/11/2020 11:56

universities starting rinsing students for maximum tuition fees

No, your facts are wrong here. The government withdrew all funding for university teaching except for a couple of programmes deemed of national importance (eg medical degrees).

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 28/11/2020 12:09

Yes, it was the government's decision to charge tuition fees and I might be wrong but didn't universities initially get to decide on the amount they charged per course? Didn't see many of them saying X course has 4 hours of contact time, so we'll charge less than for Y course which has many more.

Pota2 · 28/11/2020 12:36

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Yes, it was the government's decision to charge tuition fees and I might be wrong but didn't universities initially get to decide on the amount they charged per course? Didn't see many of them saying X course has 4 hours of contact time, so we'll charge less than for Y course which has many more.
Because they need the fee income from all students in order to survive financially. Many universities work on very tight margins. Some courses will cost far more than £9250 a year to run and they are subsidised by courses with fewer contact hours. Since we’ve had tuition fees (since 1998) there has never been a difference in fees between courses so it’s strange to expect it now.

The fees should be expressed as a graduate tax rather than a loan, which would be fairer all round. Although ideally I would want the government to go back to funding the university sector. It would be better for everyone and might reduce this consumer culture stuff.

In some subject, eg philosophy, your learning comes from reading and considering material, not from being in a classroom. For a full time degree, you should be working 9-5 most days at your independent learning. So many students don’t do that and say they are ‘learning nothing’ because they have limited contact hours. Of course they feel short-changed if they expected a teacher to just impart all the knowledge to them but it’s never been the case that humanities and arts degrees had a high number of teaching hours.

At least students these days have a nearly 80% chance of getting a first or a 2.1. If they go to Surrey, 47% will get a first. That’s the reward in place for higher fees. My students suffered as a result of teaching being stopped in March due to Covid. On the other hand, our no-detriment Covid policy and extreme grade-inflation (we were told that we needed to think very carefully about whether we wanted to give any students less than a 2.1 for the assignments) meant that most of the third years ended up with a better degree result than they would have got had the crisis not happened. And because the result rather than the learning process is what seems to matter to most students, I would argue that they didn’t do too badly out of it.

JacobReesMogadishu · 28/11/2020 12:46

Yes, the course I teach costs more than £9250 per student to deliver it so they’re getting a good deal.

I would love to undertake more face to face teaching but at my universities I’m not allowed to. Certainly none of my colleagues have refused to teach face to face. I’ve argued that if I have a group of 30 students can’t we be given a lecture theatre which sits 80 and spread out? I’ve been told no. Even though that would be legally allowed. The impression I get is that the university want to reduce numbers of people on campus due to pinch points of corridors, etc and I can understand that.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 28/11/2020 12:49

But that has created a problem for students attending universities who didn't apply a no detriment policy in the same way. There ought to have been some consistency. I'm worried about my child competing for jobs against other candidates whose universities refused to mark below a 2:1. And I wonder about the value of these degrees - employers are unlikely to be looking in detail at the policies which existed at each candidate's uni. Will my child be disadvantaged?
I am not blaming the individual tutors. It's a difficult time and everyone has done their best, I'm sure. I do believe that tutors are not happy and don't have ideal working conditions either.
But there are some very well paid people running universities, who talk a lot about students best interests, while seemingly not doing much to ensure them.

Pota2 · 28/11/2020 12:58

Yes, I think it varies from place to place. There are about 50 staff in my department and I would say circa 30 are currently doing no face to face - ie all seminars are online. I don’t have access to their medical records but I am not sure that they are all clinically vulnerable, as many are young. Our uni has given staff the option to do face to face or online and many who have long commutes have jumped at the chance of working from
home permanently. The problem is that it’s not a high standard of learning or teaching being delivered, so many students are unhappy. The people who are doing face to face have also been required to do more teaching hours to ensure that those who want a face to face session can have it. That’s where my slight resentment comes from. Especially when they tweet about how they spent all summer honing their excellent online teaching skills and that the whole of next academic year should be online too.

I’m also worried that managers are watching the sudden praise of online learning and will use that to justify cutbacks once we go back to normal. After all, if I claim that online learning is so fantastic, why not take all my lecture recordings and reproduce them year on year rather than employing me to lecture? (I teach a subject that doesn’t necessarily require constant updating, so my slides will be good for a few more years). And, as you don’t have spatial restrictions for online seminars, why not pay someone to do 3 sets of online seminars rather than 6 sets face to face? I see a worrying amount of confidence from UCU that online learning offers a good educational experience and that there should be no face to face. I worry that it’s a case of turkeys and Christmas.

Pota2 · 28/11/2020 13:13

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

But that has created a problem for students attending universities who didn't apply a no detriment policy in the same way. There ought to have been some consistency. I'm worried about my child competing for jobs against other candidates whose universities refused to mark below a 2:1. And I wonder about the value of these degrees - employers are unlikely to be looking in detail at the policies which existed at each candidate's uni. Will my child be disadvantaged? I am not blaming the individual tutors. It's a difficult time and everyone has done their best, I'm sure. I do believe that tutors are not happy and don't have ideal working conditions either. But there are some very well paid people running universities, who talk a lot about students best interests, while seemingly not doing much to ensure them.
That is very true and I understand your concern. My view is that the extreme grade inflation over the past few years have made it very hard for employers to distinguish between candidates. So what ends up happening is that they will just recruit from a narrow pool of places that they consider to be good and that will disadvantage other students.

It also irritates me when academics deny that grade inflation happens. It definitely does and it’s so unfair on students whose universities don’t do it to the same extent as others. We disregard the lowest scoring 20 credits in each year and have two different ways of weighting the marks so that the student ends up with the higher grade. Our threshold for being placed in the next degree class up is 68.5/58.5/48.5 etc. We have had externals telling us to raise all marks on a module by 10%. And that’s disregarding our own massaging of the marks, which involves a pre-exam board meeting, where we’re encouraged to ‘find more marks’ and push students into the higher boundary.

The fact that nearly half of students at Surrey get a first shows this, when 15 years ago, 10% of students got a first. Surrey is a good university but it competes with the Russell Group for students (where some places, eg Liverpool, takes students with grades far lower than the entry requirements). So, many who end up there will have fairly mediocre A-levels and be decent enough students but hardly in the league that you’d expect nearly half of them to get a first class degree.

The reason for grade inflation is the growth of consumer culture in academia. If you charge more, you have to give value for money. Getting high grades is seen as value for money and it pushes you up the league tables. If you are a university who refuses to play the game, your students suffer in the job market. It’s hideous but many academics insist that it doesn’t happen and that grades are going through the roof because students are working harder than ever, which is blatantly untrue.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 28/11/2020 13:14

Hopefully enough students will want the proper university experience that permanent online won't happen. In the long term universities would be destroying themselves if they did this. No student is going to spend ££££ on accommodation and move across the country, to do what they could have done for less money at home!
I'm surprised that the university owns your lectures and could use them in future years without your consent, if you were no longer employed by them. That's not in the spirit of your employment contract surely and I hope you would he able to challenge it.