Do you think it’s hard being a mother and an academic?

[inexcessive]

This might seem the most obvious question in the world. But what do people think? For me, being a mother and not especially successful academic is fine. But to be a mum and a successful academic seems impossible. I just can’t get enough mental headspace to really focus and concentrate, or actual time. I thought i would find that easier as they got older and i would be able to ramp up work but have found they need me more, in different ways. What is other people’s experience?

I don't know that I agree with that. I mean, I was at home all last year with my DD, and actually, in most ways it was considerably harder than what I'm doing now. Some of that is because I was trying to get research done at the same time, but not all of it.

There are lots of jobs we would probably all find 'harder' than medicine or academia or law. Personally, for example, I have no idea how people doing shiftwork like nursing ever manage not to feel exhausted.

To me the big thing is not to compare, but to think about what's reasonably achievable within our work, that would make big differences for women/mothers. There's no sense putting up with a bad system on the logic that lawyers have it harder or medics have less flexibility. We might as well just work to change the system. For example, there is absolutely no reason why academics in my field need to be present in person on campus 9-5, but there's still a perception that you're a more serious academic if you're around all the time rather than doing things like picking your child up from nursery and making up the time later.

We could easily do away with that, and it'd do no harm to anyone.

I mean harder in terms of managing childcare etc

I found it too hard and quit. I moved into professional services in HE. I now get paid more and work 9-5, pretty much on the dot, with generous holidays that I actually take. For me it's a lot, lot easier.

I didn't have a permanent job, and that, I think, was a huge part of the problem. Someone upthread said, 'what's three unproductive years out of a career?'. Well, I didn't have the space for a few years, or even any more months on top of my maternity leave, to be unproductive. My work was very archival (I was a historian) and a lot of people take a break from that kind of research and focus elsewhere when they have tiny children but I was on a postdoc that didn't allow for that.

A lot of people told me that I should have waited for a permanent job before getting pregnant - but DS took two years and three miscarriages (which themselves didn't exactly do wonders for my productivity) when I started trying at 29, so I'll never regret not putting it off because I think if I'd gambled by waiting until my late 30s or early 40s - like lots of the academic mothers I know - I'd have never had him at all.

I also lost a lot of my passion for my work when he was born. I don't like admitting that - it feels so unfeminist - but it's true. I still like working - I work full-time - and enjoy doing mentally challenging work (which, contrary to what a lot of the academics I know assume, can be found in professional services!) but I no longer felt a real burning desire, and I didn't want to work every evening and weekend any more.

Can I ask what area of prof services you work in @LisaSimpsonsbff? I'm increasingly of the mind that my life is unsustainable - not actually because of job pressure, but because I have a heinous commute and there is no chance of a post coming up in my field at my rank closer to home, but it might be more likely to find a prof services job.

Do you miss the autonomous nature of academic work? Or the flexibility?

I work in quality, which is more interesting and varied than it might sound!

Reading your post it was probably a lot easier for me to find a professional services job that didn't mean a drop in pay than you, as I think you're at a better place with your academic career - I'm paid the same as the starting salary for a lecturer where I work, which is more than I was paid as a postdoc. And it's permanent, which I also didn't have before.

I don't really miss the flexibility because I'm so busy being amazed that no one expects me to work at the weekend. I feel like I have a lot more free time and so I don't mind the rigidity - but then one of the things I found hard about academia after having DS is that I felt I was expected to be endlessly flexible but I couldn't be because I only had childcare for so many hours a week, so I think I already felt I'd lost some of the flexibility to work whenever suited me.

I manage my own workload as I see fit, though my deadlines are now a lot shorter, so I do still feel fairly autonomous. The one thing I do miss is teaching, but I don't really miss research. I think I'm better suited temperament wise to lots of shorter-term projects rather than huge, multi-year ones, really.

I have noticed that I'm quite unusual as an ex-academic because I work on the education side. There aren't that many of my direct colleagues with PhDs (though I'm definitely not the only one), but almost everyone who works in the research office has one - that seems to be where people usually go if they make that transition.

This is a very interesting thread, thanks everyone for your thoughtful contributions.

The flexibility thing is double-edged, I think. Yes, academia can be very forgiving, especially out of term. But it's trickier when it comes to cancelling classes to stay home - it's not like someone else can just cover you (not at my institution anyway), and rescheduling isn't always an option either. I've only had to do it a couple of times, and I have a generally supportive department head, but it still causes a bit of hassle. So in that respect, a less flexible job sometimes might be preferable - just take the day off, someone else covers, you don't have to 'make up the time' in the evenings or at weekends.

Since going back after my second, I've definitely lost the love - LisaSimpsonsBFF, your post really resonated with me. I really don't want to work evenings and weekends. I've considered trying to get into academic administration, but it's hard to break into here. Plus, a 9-5 with a commute would be more like a 8-6, and that's tricky with childcare. At the moment, so we can manage drop off and pick up between us, I'm doing 7.30-3, some evenings, and usually a half day at the weekend. So, I have to make it work for the moment anyway, and there is where the flexibility of academic definitely helps. But I'm exhausted, and I'm not giving my best in the classroom or at home.

In order to be properly successful though, I think you need to have a relatively light teaching load and be very organised, and probably work weekends. I do know a few very successful female academics with more than one kid, but crucially, these women are all 10-20 years older than me (I'm 40). They all acknowledge it was easier to be successful when they had young kids, as the environment wasn't as pressured. Now with the REF, and the obsession with big grants, outreach etc, it's much harder.

Thanks for that @LisaSimpsonsbff. Yup - I'm a SL and the challenge is making a sideways move into prof services that would give a comparable salary. I'd almost certainly have to take a pay cut but I'm the sole breadwinner so that's not really possible.

For now, the flexibility I get out of term time just about makes up for the horrible commute during term time and the 3+ hrs a day I spend in the car instead of either working or with DC.

Hi all, OP here. I have been reading this thread with such interest and kept starting to reply and then due to several work deadlines colliding with DD's birthday and half term and various other things, found it impossible to do so. Is that ironic? Not sure. Anyway, one thing I should clarify is that I don't think being a mother has privileged status, I think some of the issues are relevant to anyone who is a primary care giver.

Reading everybody's response here just confirms that this is really complicated. It seems that where you work, what you do, and timing of when you have your kids is fairly important. And the partner you choose! My DH is in a corporate job that has long hours in the office and much higher pay than mine. When the kids were much younger, I was starting a postdoc. I earned very little and had a great deal of flexibility. He was in the opposite position. That set a pattern for many years - my flexibility has constantly been used to get us out of sticky situations and it has consequences as things like writing get constantly put-off - and I think has also had a significant impact in terms of how we share the physical and emotional load. There is an added emotional dimension for us since he apparently doesn't enjoy his job - he says he does it purely for the money, and also slightly envies the fact that I do enjoy (sometimes really love!) my job. Partly because of that I also felt a strong pressure (from me? not him I don't think) to earn more, quickly, to share the financial burden more equally with him. That has meant that I have done a lot of consultancy which has significantly enhanced my academic salary but has also prevented me writing very much and drastically slowed my career progression. On the plus side, I have a quite good impact case study and weirdly I am sort of slightly 'better known' than my publication record should suggest or allow! My publication record is WOEFUL!

Anyway, I am not sure what I am saying with this ramble. I guess I am saying that my slow progression is not only down to the motherhood but a series of decisions I have taken alongside that. I know very few senior female academics though who have more than one child. As mentioned up thread, most have one or none. I am happy with my choice as for me kids were ultimately more important than career - and in fact another thing that slowed me down is trying to have one more and suffering repeated losses, which knocked me sideways for a few years. I am now though in my mid-40s and watching lots of younger people coming up behind me and overtaking me, I'm wondering if it's too late to really bust it, in my later 40s and 50s. I hope not!

Sorry - really long and typos!! In a hurry as we al are ..

It's tough at times but I do find the autonomy and flexibility a real bonus which wasn't really available to me when i worked in professional services - mainly due to the nature of the job I did.

it also helps that my husband works at a university - he's not an academic but is at director level and works with academics daily. He's also done his PhD so 'gets it' and gets my need for space and thinking time as he needs it too. It's also very beneficial that his PhD is in my subject and he's involved in the practical application of what I teach so we're great at supporting each other and acting as sounding boards. I think i'd find it far more difficult if I didn't have someone who understood the way he does.

@inexcessive thank you for starting this thread. I'm new on mumsnet and I thought I was alone so I didn't know there were other people who were in that dilemma of motherhood vs academic world. My academic world has sadly ended but I am so so blessed with the motherhood journey.

I think it is hard to be focused on any career when you have small children. I think that goes for both parents, when you are in a true partnership with your co-parent.

I'm not the academic, in our marriage, dh is, and his role was more flexible than mine when our dc were small.

Yes, as parents, and as people in a relationship you take different decisions from those you might have taken if you were single and without dc - I know dh turned down several opportunities he was approached for, because it was the right thing for all of us, as a family. I think the point is, that goes for all parents, not just mothers.

I think there are some aspects of academia, in some disciplines, that are particularly challenging for mothers (who usually bear the parenting burden).

In my discipline many people have to endure many years of short term contracts all over the country which is not conducive to starting a family in the first place. Workloads are such that research is often done during the evenings and weekends. Promotions prospects are improved by going on fellowships abroad (much more difficult with school age kids) and attracting large grants, preparing for which just adds to an already insane work load.

Underlying all this, is the worry that women have less space to think. Coping not just with the standard work requirements but the mental load of raising children and running households, they never have the mental space, calm and leisure required to be inspired for original research.

Yes, this last comment about time to think is what really resonates with me. Reminds me straight away of an article in the Guardian last year - A woman’s greatest enemy? A lack of time to herself.

I find it impossible at the moment, working from home with 2 young children. I have ‘time’ to work as partner on Coronavirus furlough, but its more about getting the necessary done. Research and uninterrupted thinking just doesn’t happen with constant interruptions, sounds etc (although I realise this applies to so many parents WFH at present).
My brain is currently itching to be challenged and engaged in some kind of sustained enquiry but that’s not going to happen for some time now.

Yes I read that article as well, it was brilliant and disturbing. Here it for anyone who is interested

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/21/woman-greatest-enemy-lack-of-time-themselves

Nine months ago I separated from my husband and we started sharing the DCs 50:50. It has transformed my academic life. I used to produce one paper a year, but I’ve written four papers this last nine months and have more ideas popping up all the time. The week of quiet, time and calmness is doing wonders for my research.

Hi all, OP back again, I didn't realise that this thread had moved on. Thanks again for such thoughtful replies. The difficulties of combining work and kids have obviously adopted a new form lately. We have some childcare (live-in) which is incredibly fortunate but I have to say the issue of finding time to think is a big one. I am meant to be writing a book but getting a long enough stretch to really focus, over several days, is hard. I know though that many people have it much harder than me. I have been wondering lately about really throwing everything at it once the kids are a little older - mine are 10/12 and I have now crept into what I must acknowledge are my late 40's. Is it too late? Do (female) academics ever get a second lease of life at this stage? I feel this constant sense of humiliation and shame as I watch others, including younger men, churning out paper after paper and increasingly feel old enough to be their mum!

I'm in the same boat actually, I'm supposed to finish a book chapter by the 30th but it's just not going to happen because I'm finding it so so difficult to get the proper head space during lockdown (have a DH and DS at home).

Am actually feeling incredibly panicked right now about having to tell the editors it's not ready. Yes, people should be more understanding because of the pandemic, but I also know a number of my childless male colleagues are churning out articles and book chapters right now, so will I still look pathetic?

Most of the time I'm completely fine with my situation, but at moments like this I'm so incredibly frustrated and I don't know what to do. I need proper blocks of time, I can't get them, and so I feel like a total failure.

Sorry I don't have any answers OP! But you're not alone.

I found it impossible. Had to drop out of my PhD.

I was single though, that made everything harder plus always skint so childcare costs so I could work 'full time' and take on teaching hours were a real struggle. I was funded but it was untaxed income so I could access any working tax credits or anything like that to help. It was a hard time.

I only know one female senior academic who was my masters sup, she's amazing and Prof now but she has three kids very spaced apart and a hands on husband. The only others I know are lecturer/SL and do find it really hard.

I don't necessarily want to make this a male v female thing as so much depends on circumstances etc but I have a much younger (male) colleague who is incredibly successful, and who is really becoming or perhaps already is a big name. Grrrr. Anyway, I find it fascinating as he is incredibly productive but also makes a fairly big deal of his hands-on approach to parenting his two young kids. I honestly don't know how he does it and I guess, whether it's a little performative. I have reasons to think the latter although can't share why as it could be a little outing! Some days I find the psychological consequences of trying to compete in this space as somebody who is both time compressed and not very brilliant way too much. But at the same time, I really wouldn't want to do anything else.