Bad experience during PhD, due to start Postdoc and still unhappy

[purifymymind]

DB has just completed his PhD at a world renowned UK university in a STEM subject. He didn't have a good time, and almost left on a number of occasions. He said the issue was poor supervision. I'm not sure if this is unusual or not, but his supervisor didn't even turn up for his viva. He also didn't like the politics, which he felt was unique to the institution.

DP has got a postdoc starting soon in an EU country. It's his last attempt at trying to make a success of academia. However he is still feeling really unhappy and I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience and can offer some advice on how to pull through? I feel like he has been scarred by his PhD experience.

His whole academic life has been at world renowned universities, globally. I think he would be ok with a professorship at any university, but he will not be happy with staying at lectureship level his entire career. He is quite ambitious...

Dh never goes into vivas. He always buys Prosecco for afterwards though. Not all the academic staff do that though, a well done have a nice life and the candidate goes off with their friends to celebrate is common too. They are your boss not friend remember. Just asked him and he's not sure it's even allowed (he has to be in the building and can be called in if there's a problem)

Ps professorships under the age of 45 are rare, it's a long slog - 2 post docs, a total of a minimum of 6 years plus good papers to get a lectureship then at least one ref cycle per promotion, plus grant success, money talks! Each discipline has its quirks of course but it's a slog involving crazy hours at first

I'm think he's a grown up who needs to give it a go. That said, it sounds as if there are some far wider issues with regards to self-esteem etc that he would be well worth addressing during his post-doc. In many respects tackling these and growing the ability to play the (laughable) games ever present in academia is well worth it.

Worrying too much about who was/wasn't excited about achievements is wasted energy. I hate to say it, but PhDs (and to a certain extent post-docs) are so far down the absurd food chain of academia it's not with the energy.

As someone with a challenging PhD, 10 years of 'prestigious' research experience and a solid management career behind me, the biggest ever lesson is to stop taking it all so personally and so seriously.

There would be nothing wrong in him stepping into industry for a bit or - heaven forbid - a less 'prestigious' institution (or even an aligned career). If anything, he may just realise how awesome he is by doing something outside the bubble.

Academia is an all consuming vocation and it is rough, spitting many out. But it can all be truly amazing. For someone who clearly has the academic credentials, the real challenge here is to find the joys admits the (many) idiots. Good luck OP.

One thing I've seen many young academics struggle with is the transition from being "exceptional" to being "good enough" and it sounds like your brother may be struggling with this. Or maybe not, I don't know him...

In my area - which is not physics so it might be different - most new hires at lectureship positions in universities, including okish universities, were stellar students who got first class degrees from the equivalent of Oxbridge. Not all, but most. From the point of many candidates this means that in their mid twenties, they go from being academically exceptional to being normal in their peer group - which can be quite a shock to the system, because by that time they've built up a sense of their identity around the idea of being exceptional.

There would be nothing wrong in him stepping into industry for a bit or - heaven forbid - a less 'prestigious' institution (or even an aligned career).

Pretty rare to be able to reenter academic physics from industry, though, unless working in an applied area that is very closely aligned with industry. From what pp has written, it sounds more like he is in a theory area - from which many people do move irreversibly to finance, and indeed permanent jobs are hard to find.

In my area - which is not physics so it might be different - most new hires at lectureship positions in universities, including okish universities, were stellar students who got first class degrees from the equivalent of Oxbridge.

This is definitely true for physics. Many Oxbridge PhD graduates won't manage to get permanent academic jobs in the most competitive areas. But once they come to terms with this there are of course many great options outside academia.

Perhaps the supervisor was at a conference and not able to attend or had a personal reason- he/she certainly didn't need to go in the room for the viva anyway (I absolutely hate it when supervisors do this, because they are not allowed to speak anyway and it just ups the nervousness of the student). Sending champagne is pretty nice actually if you can't be there in person.

As for the rest- why isn't your brother (DB?) posting himself? I think you are over thinking this yourself, who cares if he's single in his twenties or moved only recently or is wondering whether the academic life is for him? All of this is normal= and the best thing to do is just to be supportive, but don't over-worry or try to fix anything on his behalf. If he has a great PhD in STEM, then he has great options- he can jump into the City or into private scientific work, if academia doesn't suit.

Thanks

He has told me he is worried and I really don't feel able to advise, hence seeking advice here from other academics.

He needs to find Shit Academics Say on Facebook.

ps: the comments are better than the host; host just feeds a theme & the comments are brilliant.

Yes, I think finding a camaraderie in the sillier side of academia really helps. I have made a lot of good friends, slowly but surely over the years -perhaps he will too in his new post-doc position. I don't mean you shouldn't care for him, or listen and support- but really if he talked with other people at the same stage, he would find the same fears, worries and thoughts- and perhaps then he wouldn't compare himself to some 'perfect' academic.

He sounds totally unrealistic, though perhaps his supervisor is at fault and should have given him more perspective.

I've always been at 'prestigious' institutions, done well, etc., but my jaw is on the floor at something thinking he'll swan into a professorship but a lectureship would be slumming it. It's just a fact that a lot of postdocs don't get any further in their careers and get permanent jobs (let alone professorships). He may, or he may not, but 'I want to be a professor' strikes me as a daft reason to continue in academia.

FWIW, my supervisor wasn't at my viva (in the 'waiting outside with fizz' sense). She was busy. It was fine.

He said the issue was poor supervision

Hmmmm, it could have been. It could have been that he didn't "like" his supervisor, or that he was unprepared to take his supervisor's advice, or that his supervisor queried hm ... it's a complex relationship & if there are failings, generally (setting aside clear negligence) both parties to it bear some responsibility (albeit in different proportions).

I make this comment because your account of your DH suggests to me that he's quite unrealistic and/or arrogant and/or uncollegial. Anyone who talks about teaching thus:
He had some teaching duties early on in the PhD, but I remember he complained about students not often coming to tutorials is certainly unrealistic. Students often don't turn up, the silly idiots.

Not being at the viva ? Generally, we're only allowed i the room at the candidate's request. And unfortunately, I have sometimes had to be elsewhere during my supervisees vivas - but your DH's supervisor arranged for a bottle of champagne - that is above & beyond !

From what you have said here (and I know it's a partal picture at second-hand) I'd say I doubt your DH is cut out for academia.

And that's OK. It is not a failure to go into industry - many PhDs in STEM and HASS do. It's actually increasingly being spoken about - that something like 80% of the Doctoral students we train do NOT go into academia.

I think your DH has some deep self-reflection to do - he needs to stop transferring his doubts about himself & his career choice onto others = his apparently poorly performing supervisor, the new research team head, the students ...

What he as experienced is a pretty First Class academic journey so far (in terms of a flying metaphor!). He's now realising that the long career of an academic is much more like Premium Economy with occasional upgrades to Business. And being a professor is really not like flying First Class for the rest of your life (oh that it were!) - there are more compromises, a lot more work and responsibility, and a lot of advising people like your DH.

very tellingly, every single PhD student from the group left academia this year after completing their PhD

Quite normal - not "telling" - your DH sounds as though he's grasping at straws to project his anxieties away from the hard thinking about his future he needs to do. And that hard thinking needs to be about what PP have said - love for the subject, its difficulties, its glories, and the nature of the work.

Like MedSchoolRat I love my job, despite knowing I'd have a much easier & more lucrative life if I'd moved over to the Civil Service/Diplomatic corps or into law (all possibilities wen I was 22). I put up with a lot of the rubbish about being an academic because at bottom, I love the reading and the writing and the teaching.

ooops, I misread DB as DH but the advice still stands.

Thanks all, this is really great advice and I've shared it all with him. He admitted that he is worried about his choices. In all honesty hearing him say that concerned me even more. I got the sense that he knows academia isn't right for him but he is still trying to push ahead anyway in the hope of being happy one day. Fyi, pre his PhD he was very happy in academia.

I think there's a limit to how much you can do - he's your brother, yes, but he's also an adult who has to make his own decisions and learn things for himself.

There's no shame in getting into a PhD and deciding you don't want to go on into academia. And having been happy as a student isn't any predictor of whether or not you'd be happy in academia. I was pretty miserable through mine; lots of people who loved their degrees really hated PhD study and didn't continue with it.

Sorry, I just realised I'm presuming he was a student before his PhD, which may not be the case. Was he in academia before? If so I suppose that is different. I do know someone who was a lecturer for a while before completing her PhD, and she had a rough time, but I'm not sure it was very similar to what you're describing.

Certainly go to visit him soon if you can, even if you stay in a hotel. My experience of moving (a lot!) is that you take all your personal shit with you, and loneliness a lot worse abroad and as a postdoc. All the doubts and uncertainties get amplified. People look out for PhD students, but postdocs are assumed to be adults and are so itinerant they get ignored. It made so much difference my mum coming 3 weeks after my first move.

For both emigrating and postdocs, I'd say that the first month or two is great (excitement, stress of documents, lots to keep you busy) then the next 12-18 months are shit until you get settled and start to make friends, speak the language and make headway with research, then it all starts to feel much better. Where is he working?

He did a bachelor's, masters and then PhD. So this postdoc is his first experience working as an academic

Luckily he already speaks the language fluently, so no language issues. We also have family in the country but not directly in his new town. It's a really small university town, less than 100k people I believe

My path sounds pretty similar to your DB: I was so done with academia at the end of my PhD. My PhD supervisor was a lovely human, but a terrible supervisor, and it took a good several years after the blow-up at the end of my PhD before I felt comfortable around them again. Although people leaving academia from the group isn't really a bag sign: the majority of PhDs will get jobs outside academia, as there just aren't that many positions in it! (in my group, most people left the group before their PhD finished - now that's a bad sign - only 3 of 12 who overlapped with me actually graduated from our group; I was the last PhD they graduated for a good 10 years as everyone fled, and I think they only graduated 1 more before retiring). The viva thing is unclear - as the supervisor did plan champagne, it suggests that had he been there, he would have been with it and said congrats and all that. Sometimes it is quite difficult to schedule examiners, and they are the ones that are essential, so if there is a time they both can make it, the supervisor might have had prior commitments.

I was ready to jump ship at after my PhD, and mostly looked for industry jobs, but applied to a few postdocs and got one. I decided to give academics another go, basically with the same attitude you say your DB has: I was giving it one more chance before I pursued another path. I also ended up in the group of a new high-flyer. It was actually quite good to be part of a new group, as I got to see what the early stages of an academic career are like, and my PI was very open with advice about things that had taken him by surprise (this was in the US - he hadn't realised he was meant to be generating his own salary from grants after the first 3 years! he told everyone to make sure to ask about that at interviews...). I discovered that I did actually like academia after all; I just hadn't like my previous group. I especially like teaching and working with students, which I'd had nearly no experience before, and I'm quite glad I got a chance to figure that out.

But its no bad thing to leave, either - one really does have to love it in order to put up with it. I have a friend who stayed in academia because they thought they "should" but moved to industry a few years ago and is so much happier. I'd say your DB has a good plan to try it out in another enviornment, and also suggest he proactively talk to a bunch of people both inside and outside of academia during his postdoc to explore career opportunities.

Thanks, that sounds really like my DB experience. May I ask what your career path has been since the PhD?

Strikes me he is missing the point of a career in science if he is focusing on prestige rather than discovery at this stage.

I would suggest that he concentrates on enjoying the opportunity of funded research and a great new environment with other international researchers to meet. He should network as much as possible as it is exciting hearing about other research but also useful to know other options for the future and get some experience with collaboration and the politics of it.

IMO if he is not enjoying the science by the end of this postdoc then it seems pointless continuing whether or not he has a chance of making a longterm career from it.

Also IME a successful academic generates excitement for themselves and others rather than relying on others to provide the stimulation and prop them up when things are n’t gong so well.