Becoming a University Professor/Lecturer/Tutor

[seisachtheia]

Hello all,

I have a DS at Oxford. He's studying Classics, and is hugely passionate about it. He thinks he might like to go into teaching at a university/further research or possibly go to the bar.

So what is the process these days? BA then MA then Dphil/Phd?

Is it worth it? What is they pay like?

I first posted this in Higher Education but was advised to post here !

Yes that's the process, but then add:

apply for postdocs, which are as rare as hen's teeth

do years of insecure temporary employment teaching while researching and publishing without being paid for it. Or get lucky and land a research assistant post on someone else's grant where you research their passion.

Eventually land a permanent lectureship if you are one of the roughly 15-20% of lucky people with PhDs (guesstimate but I don't think it's far wrong, for humanities). If it's in a teaching intensive institution with poor research support, keep applying for jobs till you land one somewhere research intensive.

And that's when the fun starts, with REF pressure, and pressure to land grants and bring in PhD students and do admin roles, and to do impact activities etc.

And in the end, if you stick out as being outstanding, you'll end up on a professorial salary of £65-£75k, if that's the motivation (probably 15-25 years post PhD) .

Is it worth it? Yes, for me, no question. I get to be paid for following my passion. It's a huge privilege.

Just to reiterate my point on your last post, if job security is important this is a career to avoid. As someone who completed at PhD 3 years ago, I'm exhausted with the short term, part time posts I've held consecutively since.

Eventually land a permanent lectureship if you are one of the roughly 15-20% of lucky people with PhDs

Depends on the HEI. I'm midway through my PhD but have a permanent lecture post. That's after 5 years of extremely poorly paid and insecure temp teaching posts. Tbh he won't have any idea whether or not this is the career for him until he gets at the front of a lecture hall and starts teaching... And even then that's just a small percentage of the job. The admin is ridiculous and the pastoral support very demanding, particularly with declining budgets for mental health support and poorly thought through strategies for widening participation in HE. There's also huge pressure to publish despite (for early years academics) absolutely no protected research time.

@Lauraloop1516 saw your other post. I think we may be two peas in a pod with our opinions - couldn't agree more.

Half the time I feel more like a customer service advisor than an academic..

I'm midway through my PhD but have a permanent lecture post.

In the Humanities? As stated above, for a subject like Classics, the norm is temporary or even precarious employment for several years post-PhD. I would even say that the figure of 15-20% ending up in permanent posts is optimistic.

As well as the academic credentials, you also need to be able to cope with insecurity, and to have a thick skin to cope with constant rejection. The latter doesn't stop even when you have a permanent job, as you'll have to deal with frequent rejection for publication submissions, funding applications, etc.

The other thing that you son may not realise, OP, being someone who loves his subject, is that he will be teaching an increasing number of students who are lazy and unmotivated. Inevitably, these are the ones who take up all our time. It can be very frustrating.

Yes, I wrote 10% first and then thought that might be a bit pessimistic. It's a small percentage anyway.

I agree with the comments above about the precarious early career, and would add that there's an assumption of mobility that is probably quite unusual. At one career stage, I moved right across the country 4 times in 3.5 years. That's only possible if you're single or willing to be in a long distance relationship, or have a partner who is easily moveable, and willing to do so multiple times.

Yes, that is the process, generally speaking, particularly in the humanities. I'm in the social sciences, so it isn't unusual to leave and do a couple years of applied work before commencing a master's or PhD. I imagine this is less the case in Classics, though he can ask his tutor or postgrads in the department.

The challenge is that it tends to be a very precarious existence as a lower ranking academic and will probably require significant financial support from you/family in the early years, unless he takes on part-time work outside of academia. I don't mean while doing an MA or PhD, though also then. I mean when he is a fully fledged PhD. I was very lucky to have gotten the first postdoc I ever applied for, so I walked straight into a job. And then after taking another maternity leave (I had my first dc while doing my PhD, second after the first postdoc), I walked straight into another well paid postdoc (two grades higher than my first one). That is probably highly unusual and likely because my PhD is in the social sciences, but my research is very applied (health research in the NHS). I am 3 years post-PhD and have a good job, not much stress, and am very happy about my career choices (though even then my contract is not permanent, though the chances of renewal are good).

I would recommend he talks to early career lecturers/researchers in his department about their experiences, and that he connects with whatever professional body runs the conferences in his field that he would tend to go to. See if they have an early career group or can put him in touch with someone. The experiences of an early career academic at Oxford will NOT be anything like the experiences of 90% of other young classicists. My best friend from school and her husband both have PhDs in Classics. Neither could find a job in the field. She taught part-time for a couple years, but otherwise spent 3 years on the job market and got absolutely nowhere. She's a SAHM now with no plans to go back to academia. She does a bit of part-time work running playgroups for children and such. Her dh is a secondary school teacher (teaching Latin, Classics at a posh independent school), so he's left academia too.

That's not to be all negative about it. If you love your field, it can be a wonderful career. I couldn't imagine doing anything else and I truly love going to work every day and I am well paid working at a top UK university. But it took a long time to get here (I'm 38!). I lost a lot of productive years to study when I wasn't earning. I'm only buying my first house in the next year. I needed lots of financial support from family along the way. I still wouldn't change it though, but I'm lucky I had a family and a partner who could support me all those years.

Oh, and I second the issue raised above about being portable and able to move for jobs. I had a lot of flexibility while doing my PhD, which meant I could live away from my university (near where my husband worked and where our family was based). But both of my 2 postdoc jobs have been far from home. I commute 3 hours each way (6 hours total), 3 days a week. I work from home or am home with my dc the other days. This is pretty normal for lots of academics early in their career. I know almost no one who had a short commute (unless they just happened by chance to live nearby, in London, for example) or who didn't need to work away part of the week with a flatshare in one part of the country and their actual home in the other. It's worth it to me, because I wouldn't move (my university is in London, I don't want to live in or near London), but it's tiring with young children especially.

No way do 10% of PhDs end up permanent lecturers! I simply don't believe that. (Off to go collect data retrospectively, in best academic traditions).

I was told a few years ago that it was 5% by someone in our Graduate School who delivered training on PhD employability. But I don't know what their source was.

Good grief. 7 in 200, ten years ago. It won't have got better, either

www.theguardian.com/education/2015/apr/21/phd-cant-find-academic-job-university

I was trying to correct my informal test-the-wind-with-a-finger guesstimate slightly upwards, using what an Oxbridge colleague said to me a few years ago (that he reckoned about 1/3 of Oxbridge DPhils get academic posts, which is way more than the number of our PhDs who do). It looks as if my institution is actually doing pretty well with this, and I should have corrected my guesstimate downwards to take into account institutions that don't look as good on CVs as mine does.

7 in 200 doesn't sound wrong to me.

I don't think 1/3 of Oxbridge PhDs in my subject (close to Classics) get permanent posts. I can believe 1/3 get postdocs of some kind.

It is really hard to guesstimate, IMO, because mostly we see small cohorts. Even if you're looking over institution stats for the past decade, you might still only be looking at a couple of dozen people in your field, mightn't you?

So RE the figures above, is that due to institutional snobbery? or purely that Oxbridge will probably attract the very best candidates?(or the most ambitious!)

aka there is more point doing a PhD at Oxford than there is at Queen Mary etc

I think it's probably a bit of both. But it's also about connections and opportunities. In my field, Oxbridge require a lot of teaching staff, many of whom are PhDs and postdocs, because they teach students in such very small groups. So, if you do a PhD at Oxbridge, you are very likely to be able to find some teaching to do, and you're also well-placed to find yourself some temporary/part-time teaching to keep the wolf from the door between contracts. I don't know statistically if this makes a difference, but anecdotally, I have a pretty clear sense that it does.

Agreeing with all the above. But, a different way to look at this is to see a PhD as formal research training and so to have a plan B up your sleeve from early on: if you don't secure a decent academic job post PhD, to be able to use those skills elsewhere.

n.b. the answer to the OP last question would be that in some fields remaining at the same institution throughout your studies would be seen as a disadvantage. When I'm recruiting researchers I'm interested in what variety of approaches (and research cultures) they've accumulated. Though, I should say, at the same time being conscious that some people have no choice but to remain in one place due to family situation - or indeed, because that's the best place to do the particular sort of science they've specialised in.

aka there is more point doing a PhD at Oxford than there is at Queen Mary etc

It depends on the subject. In my field there are stronger departments outside Oxbridge. And it’s about the wider CV, rather than the university - the main thing is to have a strong REF profile, though teaching experience is becoming increasingly important. I work at a RG university and we have yet to appoint an Oxbridge postdoc to a permanent lectureship because they do not tend to have the kind of teaching experience our department requires, and have always floundered at interview when teaching questions have been asked (we teach larger groups and a range of abilities (and engagement), plus the academic and pastoral roles are not separated like they are in Oxbridge colleges). I agree with the pp that it’s not a good idea to stay in one institution for all your degrees.

I did a PhD in social sciences around 17 years ago. I got the first pot doc I went for and then a lecturer ship in a Northern uni. From there I took another one in a neighbouring town nearer to home. I stayed there 5 years before moving overseas. I work much harder in academia here than I ever did in the UK. And still, being honest, the work itself is easy, enjoyable and well paid.

One way to think of it is that there is (roughly) a fixed number of jobs in the UK as a professor teaching Classics (i.e. not many jobs). Each prof will train 10-20 PhD students over the course of a career, but when he/she retires, that opens up only 1 new job for 1 student. So the other 19 have to be out of a job.

For some fields (esp sciences), there is growing demand for training and more jobs open up at new places. but I'm not sure that Classics is a growth area, and that means that permanent jobs will always be very hard to come by.

Totally agree with previous posts but realistically if he is at the top of his cohort at Oxford and in good standing with his tutor he is in a much stronger position than most. It's unfair, but the massive majority of Oxbridge JRFs still go to Oxbridge PhDs and a JRF or similar gives you a big advantage in this kind of field. Is he on track for a strong first?

Had lots of peers who did this. They end up in crappy locations, sometimes in the US, having moved around a lot. They live in small houses/flats and can’t afford to send their kids to private school. However, they tend to be physically fit and enjoy much of their work (though usually considering leaving to better support their families). It’s precarious and they look over their shoulders at better off peers who made a different house. The (commercial) barristers live in nice houses in London, have kids in private school, are rather exhausted and often irritated with their clients. They have good savings for retirement and feel secure. But they are stressed and over-worked and struggle to get to the gym. They increasingly have partners who work part time.

It’s two very different lives. Now I have kids I am glad we went for the higher earning path but it has its own frustrations of course.

At their peers who made a different choice. Not house. Though it does also mean a different house.

"aka there is more point doing a PhD at Oxford than there is at Queen Mary"

Research study is not the same as undergraduate study: a PhD from Oxford isn't necessarily regarded as more worthwhile than one from Sheffield. It depends on the department but also on the quality of the individual's work. These days, it's possible to get a PhD and be brilliant, but there are plenty of people receiving them with absolutely appalling, intellectually worthless theses.

I think if your DS is the kind of person who is hesitating over a choice between a high standard of living and a chance to do research, then that's probably an indication that he should go for the high standard of living. Most academics I know aren't that worried about living in massive houses or having a lot of money.

OP: I did Classics at Oxford, then a PhD, eventually got a permanent academic job.

After an MA and PhD, your DS is then looking ar several years on fixed term contracts. If he is lucky some of these may be something good like a JRF, post-doc, which lasts 2 or 3 years. If he is unlucky some of this will take the form of short term teaching only contracts, heavy load and poorly paid. There are many such jobs around in Oxbridge- many of the people who get them end up in these have no time to publish and so become uncompetitive for other jobs. Even if he's brilliant, there will be a number of years in this stage, when he will need to publish as much as he can, probably while being paid peanuts and with a heavy workload.

To get a permanent job in classics, he will need to have published his PhD as a monograph. Some people do still get jobs without this, but it's increasingly rare. He'll also need several years teaching experience, some articles, and probably some other stuff like involvement in public engagement activities, admin tasks for a department, etc. Even with all this, he will have to wait till a job comes up in his specific area of expertise (not often), and be geographically very flexible. And however good you are there is still a massive element of luck in the job market. I know brilliant scholars who didn't get a permanent job and other much more mediocre people who happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Overall, getting that first lecturer level job is tremendously stressful. If I had known what it would be like I wouldn't have put myself through it, and I am one of the lucky ones. Your son should talk to his tutors but ask them to be realistic (older Oxford dons may have got their job back in the day when you walked into it straight from a PhD).

That being said, lots of people do further study in Classics and then move on elsewhere - if he is good enough to get funding for an MA place, he doesn't need to decide until much later on.

Happy to answer further questions.

I think one thing to remember is that being passionate is not enough for an academic job. I know PhD students who were really passionate about their topic but couldn't get a job afterwards. Instead it was sometimes the slightly less passionate (and sometimes less gifted) ones who did get jobs because they hadn't lost themselves in their research, but instead had been more strategic about building up all the other skills required in academia (teaching, admin experience; organising talks, workshops, conferences and so on). Probably the only way to find out though is to start a PhD and see how he gets on!

Finally, while employers don't necessarily like seeing candidates who have been at 1 institution their whole life, there are ways to address this. For example by visiting (being based at) another institution for a few months during the PhD.