Reverse poaching

[ghislaine]

I am a bit unhappy in my current institution and see my promotion prospects as limited. Personally I think I have a good case for promotion (and was shortlisted for a Readership elsewhere four years ago) but in my experience, the process isn't very transparent and is heavily dependent on the recommendation from the head of school.

So.... I was thinking about making an approach to another institution (the one where I was shortlisted). There's a new Head of School. It would be a slight step up status-wise but not enough that I wouldn't be a good fit. I did my PhD there, was a visiting lecturer there for a year before going to my current institution and still work with my former supervisor.

Has anyone actually done this? I know I'd be in a weaker position than applying for an actual job but jobs in my area come up so infrequently that I can see myself being stuck at my current place for another 5 years or more.

So, you're wanting them to give you a job, although they didn't last time when they interviewed you? I've never heard of that, unless it's someone with a big grant & a team etc etc etc. Good luck - but to be honest, I highly doubt it's feasible, given the way appointments work in the UK.

It's very rare for departments to be able to create new permanent jobs, unless the person who approaches them is a superstar. If they could make a new permanent job, then they would usually want to advertise it, to make sure they get the best candidate - and to maintain balance between researchers and groups in the department i.e. give them all a chance to get researchers from their fields to apply.

There's probably nothing to be lost by approaching the department - the worst case is that this gets back to your current department - but I wouldn't be too optimistic.

In many academic fields there are pretty much no jobs at more senior levels - this is how universities get away with not promoting people, pushing them to obtain more income before applying for promotion etc.

In my field (Humanities), there’s no way this would work, unless (as PP said), you’re some kind of research superstar. You risk it getting back to your work.

I think more of this goes on than it used to, but almost only in relation to people with large grants/funded teams. But if you think they might be going to advertise something soon anyway there's no harm letting them know you'd be interested.

I've encountered this once, where a colleague who won a large grant instantly started fishing around for better offers. He was playing two or three institutions off against each other, and eventually went to one of them with his money. Left a very very sour taste. None of us keep in touch with him.

In my department, we would never appoint a permanent colleague without an open competition. It's completely unethical.

In my department, we would never appoint a permanent colleague without an open competition. It's completely unethical

Absolutely. It's why I think the US practice of "spousal appointments" is wrong & discriminatory.

OP I think what you could do - but very carefully - is speak to the Head of Department who shortlisted you, to say that you were very interested in their unit and working there, and what feedback could they give you to help you get appointed next time.

And if you want to force your own institution's hand, you'll need to use the fact that you were shortlisted elsewhere for a Readership as a bargaining chip for promotion. Plenty of men do that. But you probably needed to do it at the time, and be prepared for them to go "Well, if you want to go to the other place, be our guest." (I've had both responses).

It really depends on institution and your position in it as to whether they'll make a retention offer. But it's something you needed to do 4 years ago, to be honest.

This happened a lot at my last institution and much less at my current one - but it's coming in; the department has recently made one such appointment and about to make another that we haven't been informed out yet.

I don't feel strongly about it because I've disengaged emotionally from everything except my own work - but think it causes a clear problem in that it sends a signal that this is the way the game is played, and encourages everyone who can move to play this game while those who can't are treated as stuck and fair game for being exploited. Not the career it used to be, hey.

while those who can't are treated as stuck and fair game for being exploited

Except that there's quite a publicly-discussed case at Royal Holloway of a woman taking the college to an employment tribunal for sex discrimination on this very basis - from memory, her comparator was a male colleague who managed to get a "retention" pay rise every time he was shortlisted for another job elsewhere. I think her argument was that because she had been "loyal" to her institution, kept there by family commitments etc (ie not uprooting her children's education by moving etc) she was discriminated against on grounds of sex.

She won, iirc.

Thanks all for the responses. It's sharpened my thoughts on this a lot.

Promotion is notoriously hard in my department. They won't do anything off the back of shortlisting. You have to get an offer, then they will move (even then our HoS has been known to ask women who've been offered Chairs elsewhere whether this is serious because of the expected commute!). Unfortunately I can't speak to the other institution's old HoD because he died unexpectedly shortly after leaving.

I know that a job offer won't be magicked out of thin air, and of course I expect there to be an open competition for any position but what I was hoping to achieve is to get myself on the radar of the new head of school and be seen as the natural next appointee. I am ready to go if that's what I'm told. I have been exploited plenty in my current position so I'm not feeling much loyalty at the moment. I have no problem with this getting back to my current department. It's very clear in my institution that this is how it works - trying to be a "good girl", working hard, and being promoted because you are good at what you do, doesn't cut the mustard here, sadly. I've tried that.

I don't think it matters that I was unsuccessful last time (although fwiw, I was told that I was the department's first choice after the research presentations). Since then, there's been a new head of school, with a very different focus, the two senior people in my field are even closer to retirement, and the person who was in the equivalent position to me left under a cloud. The two junior academics are more in a related field than my actual one and have been drafted in to cover teaching shortages. They don't research in my field. So they are short in my field now, and will be shorter still in the near future.

Things I think make me attractive are:

Good publication record eg I have seven pieces out/coming out this year which I think is pretty good for humanities.

I established a research centre a few years ago which is unique in my field in the world. I have essentially brought to my discipline a whole new lens of analysis. I am and have been approached by other institutions for collaborations and we have been successful in bringing in fairly large grants (not science level, but in the hundreds of thousands). We have really good connections and (financial) support from industry (and we are the only centre in my department which has achieved this).

Colleagues at this other institution have encouraged me to approach their new Head.

I think her argument was that because she had been "loyal" to her institution, kept there by family commitments etc (ie not uprooting her children's education by moving etc) she was discriminated against on grounds of sex. She won, iirc.

But in UK academia there is a huge gender pay gap - typically 15-20%. Women in general aren't winning this battle. Even when a woman gets an offer from elsewhere, the retention offer is much less generous - as the assumption is made (often correctly) that the woman will accept a poorer offer.

The first thing I would do is apply for promotion where you are (unless you hate it there). You say it's not transparent, dependent on these intangible things, but you don't actually know til you go forward. I'd schedule a meeting with the HoD AND their boss/decision-maker about promotions, outline briefly why you are a very good candidate for promotion and ask them what you would have to do to get promoted.

If you don't ask, you don't get. Also, even if you not promoted that time around, it marks very clearly that you are expecting promotion and puts in their mind that they may lose you (and your research centre and grants). Also, increasingly institutions are formalizing promotion criteria through fear of being sued, so perhaps the old ways of mysterious promotions are being left behind a bit. At my institution, the criteria are very transparent, they are bent sometimes which is annoying and often gender-biased but if you have a good case, you have a good case. You have nothing to lose by applying here.

The reaching out to the other institution, you have no idea how it will be perceived so I'd make sure you absolutely have done everything at home before you do that, although an informal chat with their new HoD (because they are new, you want to network etc) might not go amiss.

Yes, I do plan to apply for promotion at my current place. I put myself forward this year and my HoD knocked me back, telling me I needed to produce another monograph before I could apply. There is no way I could have written and had published a monograph within a year so he had set me an impossible requirement. None of the current readers have had to do this. Some readers have no monograph. We had a promotion to professor last year with no monograph (that hasn't gone down well). By the end of the meeting he had revised that to two full-length articles (which I've already done, and more). So I certainly hope that my case for promotion is on their minds. I wrote to confirm the outcome of the meeting, stating that "you advised me that in order to be a strong candidate, I would need to...". Hopefully the new HoS won't change the playing field to require something different.

How funny, this happens a lot in my place / field. And spousal appointments happen too! However, it only happens for someone who has their salary covered externally with fellowships etc. And a big team covered my grants. Someone new just joined my department, she approached them I think but in the last few years she has won £3million + in funding

bigkids that would happen in our social science dep't, if someone comes along with millions, when they are recruiting, they would get taken as an additional hire if they cover their own salary at least for a few years. That's a no-brainer for a dep't I think, although obviously then they have to cover the salary later down the line.

If you were required to submit two great articles, and you have done so, then apply again for promotion with the new HoS and see how the land lies. They may be for more transparency rather than less. You sound a great candidate.

i've done a move the way you suggest. I interviewed for a job at another uni and didn't get it (no one was appointed because there was no fit to the area they wanted). then I got a big grant. So I emailed HoD at the place I wanted to be to ask if there might be a job in future. and they created a job for me!

So it can work. but if you are using this as a strategy to get a raise / promotion at your current uni, then you have to be 100% sure you are ready to move away if needed. I've seen this happen too.

That's a no-brainer for a dep't I think, although obviously then they have to cover the salary later down the line.

It used to be. It is much harder now that it was a few years ago, due to the increasing financial pressures on universities.

Agree that if you ask/apply for roles elsewhere you have to be willing to take them.

OP you sound excellent and a bit at the end of your tether.

I know that feeling! Reading your posts, I would approach the other institution. Make sure you do it with confidence.

Good luck

I've heard loads of stories about people doing this kind of thing & finding success. Not straight into a new job because the funding never is just lying around, but getting forewarning about opportunities to come. Surprised that folk are so negative.