Any PIs or grant holders around? or anyone really...

[IamAporcupine]

If you:
a) hold a grant and have technicians/RAs employed and paid from that pot, and
b) decide to move institutions
Can you transfer your grant to the new institution? What happens to the people employed on that grant if they cannot move with you?

Has anyone got any experience on this?
TIA

It depends on the rules of the funder and your current institution.

We have had grants move with the PI, sometimes RAs have moved with them, sometimes they have stayed and been directed remotely by the PI, sometimes we have found other work for them. In the worst case scenario, they can be made redundant if they don't move, but we have managed to avoid this.

We have also had Pls leave and have just appointed a new PI, keeping the grant at our institution.

Many thanks ManInTheMoonMarigold that's very helpful

Anyone else?

I've left a grant to finish its last few months in my old institution when I moved jobs to allow a PhD student to finish up without disruption. I had to appoint another member of staff to act as PI of the grant when I left and they became the new contact point for everything. It was nonsense really - all contact from the funder went to the new PI, and they had to submit the end of award report even though I wrote it - but it was the only way to avoid messing the student about before they submitted.

I wouldn't do it again if at all possible. I was lucky that the PI who nominally took over was a mate and a decent human being, but it did give them a lot of power over my project and it was more work for them (due to internal admin) than either of us anticipated in advance. Next time, I would move the grant with me if I could, or even try to keep a partial contract at the old institution (e.g., for the costed PI FTE) until the grant was wound up.

Regarding technical staff who can't move with you, if employed 100% FTE then you have to fill the post at the new institution. Same if they're employed a decent chunk of FTE that could conceivably make up a part time post (e.g., 30-50%) - it too would probably have to be filled as a new post at the new institution.

If it's a smaller %, then in my discipline I would expect the existing technical pool at the new institution to mop it up (assuming they can offer the appropriate support). If it's super-specialised work they can't support at present, then I'd be negotiating with my new dept to throw money at the problem and help fund a part-time post to support the grant. If the new dept can't/won't do that as part of a start up package, then I don't see how I'd be able to move my grant at all! It's probably different outside STEM though

Many thanks geekaMaxima
I am actually a bit confused. I am the RA in this situation and my PI will be leaving. He said he wants to take my post (and me) with him, but I am not sure yet if I can move.
My contract in until June 2019.
Can the University simply finish my contract early?

If your post is tied to your PI's grant, OP, then the university can end your post as soon as the money leaves. There's a clause in all regular temp research contracts that allows for this possibility.

It's unfortunate for RAs everywhere, but an inevitable consequence of external funding.

OMG really?!?
I thought it was exactly the opposite - ie that a PI could not take the (salaries) money elsewhere if there was already a contract in place in the first institution.

Doesn't your post, geekaMaxima slightly contradict ManInTheMoonMarigold's?

IamAporcupine, that is why I said you need to check the rules of the grant funder. For some funders, the money is linked to the individual PI, for others it is linked to the institution and the PI can take nothing with them, others will allow the PI to take their own salary but nothing else, etc. You need to find this out and then speak to your HoD about where it leaves you if you can't move.

We have never made someone redundant because we have a lot of grant income, so it has always been possible for us to find people other work (which is why you need to discuss your situation as soon as possible with you HoD), but as geekaMaxima says, if there is no money coming in to pay your salary then you have no job. I would check your contract, but this is a common clause in contracts that are dependent on external funding.

@ManInTheMoonMarigold - thanks, that's extremely helpful

Unfortunately the move is not official yet so I cannot inquiry about rules or go to the HoD to discuss until my PI makes it public.

You should be able to find the conditions of the grant on the funder's website.

Have you told the PI that you may not be able to move?

Yes, it's very dependent on funder. RCUK and European grants are generally moveable with the PI, charities are a mixed bag of policies, industry funding depends on the contract.

It also depends on discipline. In my area, technical RAs often have such specialist skills that - even when they go on a redeployment list - there is unlikely to be another project seeking staff that could make use of them. When I've been hiring RAs, I've never been able to find someone with the right skills on a redeployment list, so I've always had to look externally.

Thank you both so much

What awful working contracts us RAs have

An update - it is official now so the discussions between both institutions' HRs have started.
I have talked to the HoD and it seems it is not clear which grants can be moved and which ones stay. Plus there is also a bit of nasty politics and conflict between co-PIs.

I am supposed to be meeting HR next week for consultations.
Should I be aware of anything in particular?

Sounds horrible, I guess all you can do is state your preference and hope a PI will fight your corner.

New update -

I have decided I will not move
I have also stated that I would like to finish the project I am on. It will be a really bad move, both for the project and me, not to do so.
My PI is happy for me to work remotely and travel as and when for meetings.
There is a job opportunity for me (at my Institution) for when my current contract finishes (or even earlier)

Can anyone with more experience in this things suggest a possible solution to this?

I thought of splitting 50/50 so that I could continue in the project (paid by the other Institution) but keep my affiliation with my current employer?!

Any advice will be truly appreciated!

shamelessly calling the experts

@ManInTheMoonMarigold
@geekaMaxima

Hi again OP - I'm not sure I understand you.

You've decided you won't move but will continue on the grant you're currently on: is that right?

So the PI is able to leave the grant in the original institution rather than move it to the new one, and you remain an employee of the original institution...?

Or is it that the grant is moving with the PI, so that you become an employee of the new institution, but you're just not physically moving house...?

Until I can get my head around that part, the 50/50 question is beyond me!

thanks for replying geekaMaxima
I can see why my post is confusing!

You've decided you won't move but will continue on the grant you're currently on: is that right?

Yes, or kind of.

So the PI is able to leave the grant in the original institution rather than move it to the new one, and you remain an employee of the original institution...?

No. The PI wants to take the grant with him

Or is it that the grant is moving with the PI, so that you become an employee of the new institution, but you're just not physically moving house...?

Yes, sort of.

I'll try again:
I have decided that I will not be moving physically but I would like to carry on working on the project/grant (which is moving to the new institution).
PI has agreed I could work remotely.
I do not want to become a (FT) employee of the new institution and lose all my rights here (continuous service etc)

Is that any clear?!

Someone has just mentioned that the solution to this is not a 50/50 split but a collaboration agreement between the two universities.

Thanks so much

I get you now!

Working remotely is definitely a good move if the PI is ok with it.

Is the PI also ok with you going from (presumably) FT on the project to 50% PT? That kind of thing depends very much on the nature of the project and to some extent the funder. For example, my own grants have had postdoc roles that definitely wouldn't have been feasible at 50%, but others where it would have been fine if the funder was willing to grant a no-cost extension to the project or if I would have split the role into two PT posts.

I'm not sure what you mean by a collaboration agreement between the two universities, though. Do you mean splitting the grant spend between two institutions? If so, that depends on the funder and the nature of the grant, so may not be possible.

If you don't mind me asking, why are you so concerned about continuity of service in your current institution? The benefits are generally pretty small for research staff, such as number of months paid sick leave entitlement or number of days annual leave. (Academic staff tend to think about their sabbatical clock!)

Hello again. Good news about being able to work remotely.

Your PI's new institution could issue a subcontract to your existing institution or the two institutions could agree to some kind of secondment. This depends on the rules of the grant and whether the two institutions are happy to do it.

The same would be true for asking to reduce your % on the project and extending the end date - it has to be within the rules and everyone has to be happy for you to do it. Personally, it would depend on how reliant I was on this project for the REF, as extending the project by an additional 10 months at this stage could kill any chance of getting publications and impact cases out of it in time.

Depending on the university, there may be some small benefits to continuity of service for research staff. For example, some universities will move people with more than 4 years continuous service on at least two successive contracts onto an open ended contract. Having had multiple contracts is seen as demonstrating the potential for continued funding even if the actual existing funding has a fixed end date. Not all universities do this and some will still use the fixed funding end date as a reason to waive the four year rule.

I can't really think of a lot of benefits to having an open ended contract that you know is going to end over just having a fixed-term contract though. There would be a small increase in redundancy pay, discretionary entitlement to research leave and it's useful if you want to get a mortgage.

There might be benefits to retaining a contract at your current institution in terms of transitioning to the job that has been offered there. Potentially, it could mean that there is no application process, just a rolling on to another contract.

Thank you so much to both of you for taking the time in replying.

I will answer some of your questions, and ask some more!

@geekaMaxima

Is the PI also ok with you going from (presumably) FT on the project to 50% PT?

We have not discussed it yet. This is all in my head for now while I try to work out options!

You are right in that for this project 50% will not be feasible, but the 50/50 split was just an example, I'd say that a 80/20 would be doable and I believe the funders would allow a no-cost extension (as this was discussed for other purposes).

I'm not sure what you mean by a collaboration agreement between the two universities, though.

I was not sure either, someone just mentioned it in passing to me today. What ManInTheMoonMarigold says makes sense.

If you don't mind me asking, why are you so concerned about continuity of service in your current institution?

I might be completely wrong but I thought otherwise I would lose any redundancy pay?!

@ManInTheMoonMarigold

Your PI's new institution could issue a subcontract to your existing institution or the two institutions could agree to some kind of secondment. This depends on the rules of the grant and whether the two institutions are happy to do it.

This would be perfect. Are there any cons? I am wondering why no one (HR/HoD/PI) has mentioned this as an option

For example, some universities will move people with more than 4 years continuous service on at least two successive contracts onto an open ended contract.

Yes, that's my case.

There would be a small increase in redundancy pay,

This will show how naive and uninformed I am, but hey -
if an RA had been on 3 consecutive 3 yr contracts at time s/he was made redundant, is the redundancy pay for 9yr or 3yr?
I have been at my current institution for >10yr

Potentially, it could mean that there is no application process, just a rolling on to another contract.

That would definitely be the case for my next job.
How about grade and salary - would leaving and coming back not have an effect on this?

Thanks so much again for your help

Contract research staff employed on grants aren't typically entitled to redundancy pay in most institutions - once the grant money ends, the position ends, with no further obligation to the employing university. There's a clause in fixed-term contracts that basically stipulate just that.

Of course, there are all sorts of exceptions for certain research fellow posts, postdoc "pools" not tied to grants, and so on, but such positions really are exceptions rather than the rule. Unless you're absolutely certain your contract is one of those exceptions, you shouldn't assume you're entitled to redundancy pay.

Of course some universities are less dickish to research staff and issue an open-ended contract for anything over 1-2 years, and that would qualify someone for redundancy pay... but it's not the usual way.

Most universities treat research staff poorly, unfortunately