poached by another institution?

[ananonymousacademic]

I'm a fairly regular poster who has namechanged for obvious reasons. Does anyone have any experience (either from an academic or a management perspective) of a "poaching" situation (i.e. being approached about possibly moving to a different institution without applying for an advertised position)? I am in this position but as (obviously) this sort of thing is always totally secret until it is a done deal I have no real idea of what's involved and there's almost no-one I can ask for advice - what questions should I ask? how hard should I negotiate? how does this sort of thing actually work? Any insight or advice would be much appreciated.

Congratulations!

Would it be for a promotion or a lateral move? Do you want to move? If yes, they're obviously keen so I would use that to your advantage re salary, transfer of sabbatical entitlement etc. Of not, I would start going through the process anyway and see what leverage that gets you at your current institution.

Thanks. It would I think be basically a lateral move though to a more prestigious institution and also a better fit departmentally. I am keen, I think, though a bit surprised by the whole thing, as was planning to look for a new job in the next few years but wasn't on the market at all yet.

Sounds immensely flattering, surely an increase in salary/relief from teaching might also be on the cards- or are you sure there's no promotion in it. Don't aim low, they obviously want to start a conversation about you going there, so have a think what you would want/need to make this really work for you, rather than just accepting the same at a slightly more prestigious place.

Thanks. Yes even if it goes nowhere it's been useful to think about what would be perfect for me at this point as I've been at my current institution for a while. Just all a bit strange to navigate as no formal process - just a series of conversations. I do have a funded research team (social sciences) and also quite a few PhD students who would all have to move with me so logistically a bit of a faff.

I was headhunted by my current institution. The post was advertised, but the Dean contacted me to ask me to think about applying, and we had several meetings & conversations (I knew her from elsewhere). I applied as normal, but I was the only person they interviewed (high risk on their part, I thought).

So, I had to be clear in my own mind whether I wanted the job - it seemed to me to be unethical to interview & the turn it down. But I was clear that there were reasons for me to stay where I was at the time. So I had lots of questions for them.

I didn't tell my immediate departmental colleagues that I was being lured away - but I did speak to the PVC of of my then faculty - more or less to try to find out from him (a slippery character at the best of times) what my future and the future of my unit would be if I stayed. He offered me more money to stay, although I told him it really wasn't about the money. I felt my unit was being driven down & lacking in investment & care. In the end that was why I moved - I moved to a university which values the discipline I teach/research in a way that the place I left did not.

But the conversation did mean that I had a salary offer on the table to tell the headhunting institution. And they offered me what the place I was leaving was dangling at me (a payrise of around £10k, although the move was to a really expensive city & I need that extra salary).

The move hasn't been ideal location-wise to be honest - it's expensive & I'm less well off than where I was (north to south moves are awful that way). But the work, the institution & the team I work with are much better.

I tried to be as ethical & straightforward as I could - I didn't tell my immediate colleagues as I really was not sure about the advances being made to me, and if I decided not to leave, I didn't want them to know. However, I did consult with my Head of School as well as my PVC of Faculty - not to drive up my worth at that institution, but to be clear about what they saw me doing in the future with them, and how they were thinking about the development of my Department. They could give me assurances about a glittering future for me (I'd be a PVC by now if I'd stayed, but I'd already decided to step off that track) but not my unit - I'd have had to do that heart & back-breaking work.

In the end, it was the treatment of my unit that tipped the balance. I knew if I'd stayed I'd have had to lead the development of my unit, and fight every single step of the way. I suspect it may literally have made me ill.

So I allowed myself to be headhunted elsewhere. And on balance, it's been a very good move.

I think the one thing that I've noticed every time I've moved (and I like to move institutions every 10 years or so so I don't get stale), is that it takes a couple of years to establish yourself, get asked to do things, consulted etc. Even at my level (now reasonably senior prof), a move is always a bit of a backward step in the range of things I get asked to do. But after a couple of years, it picks up again. I'm as overcommitted as ever!

long story short: be clear about your own ethics and boundaries. And be straight with the people you're dealing with, while balancing that with discretion. Only you will know where the balance between openness and discretion is most comfortable for your conscience & your career.

I think on balance, I probably wasn't open enough with my immediate colleagues. But I needed to look after myself - and by this I mean, not career-wise, but my mental & physical health.

Thanks Wandering that is hugely helpful. It is exactly things like at what stage I ought to tell whom that I am uncertain about and obviously can't ask advice about without giving the game away! Particularly staff I'm responsible for and who would have to move with me - I don't want to unsettle them by discussing it and it then not happening, but equally don't want to spring it on them at the last minute. That's really interesting that before it was confirmed in fact you spoke not to departmental colleagues but only at faculty level. I hadn't thought of doing that. There might be a counter-offer (retention) but I don't think it would tempt me because (a bit like you) my issues are with the direction of the institution I'm at as a whole, not (primarily) my personal treatment, though the latter could have been better for sure. I wish there were some sort of confidential network of senior women colleagues one could tap into to discuss this sort of thing!

Would you mind saying what the timescale of your move was? Did it all happen quite quickly or was it a "normal" recruitment cycle over the course of an academic year, with you moving for September?

I’d just say be very careful.
My husband works in finance, he was working for a good company but was approached by someone he knew, someone he considered to be a friend. The “friend” had been trying to track down my DH to offer him a better position. A £30k pay increase, a rather prestigious car, all the bells and whistles.
My DH took the offer, you’d need a strong head to say no. Within three months the new company said “it’s not working out” and my DH was asked to resign!
We lived off of our savings for the next 6 months.
Luckily DH has now got another job, doing the same role he has always done with a new company and is very happy there, but we are now firm believers in “A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush”
Just be careful you’re not tempted to leave a secure job to go somewhere that’s all talk and no substance.

I don't want to unsettle them by discussing it and it then not happening, but equally don't want to spring it on them at the last minute

It's never going to be last minute! The timescale for me was almost 6 months. My Head of School got a bit tough when I finally said I was leaving, and required me to work out my notice to the exact latest date he could require. Fair enough but some places will let people go earlier. However, I had to stay till the end of the teaching year, as required by that university's contract. So I moved June-July.

There was a fair bit of time to plan, and I could set up arrangements for PhD students. I gave them choices about transferring, or staying with an adjusted supervision arrangement (me plus a local supervisor), or swapping to a new supervisor. Only one of mine was funded by my research grant, so it was relatively simple, but I didn't tell them until I knew what choices I could offer them.

I left with a (mostly) good reputation, and I think that's important. So it's worth taking your time. If the other place wants you, they will want you. You can remind them that it's important to make good arrangements for those for whom you are responsible - this shows you'll be a good colleague at your new place.

my issues are with the direction of the institution I'm at as a whole, not (primarily) my personal treatment

I'm not the only person I know who has moved institutions because of this - if only universities realised that their treatment & policies have this effect. When I left my place I was one of about 3 senior women who left around about that time. The VC was perplexed, so I told him why I was going ... They don't like losing senior women. It looks bad (generally because it is bad!)

Oh, and the other thing: I had a book to finish, so I asked for some teaching relief in my first year there. They offered me a sabbatical to start with! So I didn't start teaching until my second year there. Which was a bit odd, but I took it as a commitment to me.

Things that I'd consider in your position are:-

Do they have the space/facilities for my team? As in physical office/lab space, equipment, etc.

Can I move my funding easily, (assuming you are the lead), it's not a time-limited stream that might be affected by a gap in moving your team across to the new institution? Also, if any of your team do not want to move can you extend it if necessary to recruit?

Relocation package - both personal (for you) and your team's equipment (if relevant).

If you have any specialist software that is not commonly used in Unis, can the computing department at the new one make it work deal with installing it and the licence, etc.

As a PP said, it's never a mad dash because you are likely to have a notice period of at least three months, possibly including a clause about working to the end of the term as the PP was held to.

Good luck with the negotiations! It sounds an interesting proposition.

Thanks all. Great points about space, specialist software etc - presumably there's a point where there's a general agreement that it might work and then you get down to the nuts and bolts of this sort of thing. And thanks for the guidance on waiting to discuss with dependent staff/students when you know what the options are for them so that they can think in terms of concrete choices rather than possibilities - this makes sense and is a useful rule of thumb. Re: institution as a whole yes, if this goes through I may be in the vanguard, but a lot of people will leave I think over the next few years. And obviously the people that leave most/first are the ones with most options - i.e. with the bargaining chips of grants, big labs, lots of pubs etc; I don't understand why the powers that be don't get this, or possibly they do and just don't care!