Is this normal in academia?? Am I missing something?

[Fishoutofbowl]

Hi, just looking to pick some academic brains about something, I’m just a student so hope I’m not intruding here!

Basically, I’m a masters student doing a study for my dissertation that was meant to be partly questionnaire data, partly an experimental section. The experimental part uses a particular piece of equipment that Im not confident using.I emailed my supervisor today to say that I don’t feel confident using it or analysing it and would rather not include it in my study. I’m going to collect more questionnaire data and adapt the experiment so it doesn’t include this equipment.
She said this was totally fine for my study and would work well but asked me to still collect data using the equipment on a large number of participants (more than I have so far), because she needs it for a grant for a separate study. Am I missing something here about why I should do that?

I’m going to disagree with others here. It sounds like your supervisor is trying to use you as a free RA. You are not obligated to do any data collection for them. If you don’t need it for your own project and you won’t benefit from the training experience you don’t have to do it. Check your student handbook, it might say something about it. Mine explicitly stated that supervisors couldn’t get you to do their own projects for free. It’s standard practice for students to get Research assistant contracts and get paid at my place!

Being involved could mean you're on a paper or perhaps written in as a PhD student in this grant DH wwants to write. It's not exactly what you should be doing but I guess she wanted you to do the work so you could both benefit but now you're only doing the questionnaires (assuming qualitative data) the quantitative data still needs doing. If you do it I'd be up front and check you'd be part of the paper/ grant if you want to continue is to a PhD? If she's just using you for cheap labour then get your own work done first but perhaps Help a little too?

Obviously I agree you cannot be obliged to do it so if you really don’t want to then don’t. And check your university regs regarding what is and isn’t allowed just in case. I was just suggesting that it sometimes might be to your advantage. But that’s your call, based on your particular situation.

I'm shocked by the views suggesting that OP should be grateful to supervisor and therefore be an unpaid labour. That's just ridiculous. The supervisor is in the wrong to put that expectation on you. If she wants you to collect data for her own project, she should offer payment. For my undergrad dissertation my supervisor wanted data and paid me to collect it.

I can't believe people on this thread are trying to justify what is exploitation.

Thanks to those who gave different responses. I’m actually really upset over this, as I don’t think I have done anything wrong and it’s very disheartening to be told I have an attitude when I try my best on this course and with this project. I totally get the idea of it opening doors for me and it’s not that I can’t see the benefit because it’s not instant (Wow) but that I don’t want to go into academia (I’m not in academia now I’m doing a specific taught qualification) and don’t want a PhD or funding for anything.
Obviously getting my name on something would be great but I don’t particularly see that coming here from how she phrased her request (not as a request). Unlike a junior doctor or someone who is funded, I can’t live on air while collecting this woman’s data. I’m actually really really upset by responses here.

If there really isn’t anything useful in it for you then I think you need to politely explain that if it’s not a part of your project then you won’t have time, and maybe have a confidential chat with an academic advisor at your student union just in case you need some support later (most SU have these now). You could go to your head of programme if it does become a bigger problem -I would recommend keeping it informal if possible, but don't be afraid to take it further if your supervisor is awkward.

So when you went through the process of writing your research project proposal and it went to the ethics committee you were OK with using a piece of equipment, but now the deadline is looming you are worried that you wont be able to get to grips with the equipment, so have agreed to adapt your study?

Have you discussed the implications on the changes on the validity of your study and ensured that the adapted survey manages to fulfil this?

" I’m a standard, taught student and don’t have any desire to go into academia in the future. I honestly don’t see any specific benefits for me". I also completed a taught masters (alongside working) and as I discussed previously had not foreseen the actual benefits. I really enjoyed my research project (far more than I expected) and have made a small contribution to the field - something I find amazing/unexpected and has excited me so much that I hope to continue to do so.

Personally I would be more worried about your lack of excitement for your research project (it may just be how that comes across in this thread). It's tough going and much easier to complete if you have a genuine interest in the topic.

Though it’s got nothing to do with the question asked, of course I’ve considered the implications of removing this equipment, kscience. Do you get kicks from being snide to people on the internet? I have literally no concerns about my own project (other than the typical concerns that everyone has), but thanks for your input.

Thanks Slightly, I have arranged a meeting tomorrow to to discuss it politely.

My guess is that the people suggesting it’s acceptable to get a student to be a free minion didn’t have to pay £8K plus for the privilege of being a minion themselves. Times change :). Try not to let it get you down. You are a consumer under the law paying for your tuition (assuming you are in the UK!).

OP, your supervisor has agreed that you can complete your project just based on your questionnaire data so there doesn't appear to be any direct benefit to you in collecting this extra data, and if it will be difficult and time-consuming then it may well detract from your thesis by acting as a distraction. Therefore, on the face of it, it would be sensible to refuse to do this.

However, as you've seen from some of the responses on this thread, some academics expect their students to work for them for free "contribute to the general research culture", so you may need to tread carefully.

You are a consumer under the law paying for your tuition (assuming you are in the UK!).
Herein lies the problem. Just because you are paying for education doesn't mean you should be able to receive the degree without doing what you were supposed to. Research integrity is the basis for all universities, not money. The pursuit of knowledge is the whole point, not just the certificate.
By pursing the knowledge you are defining what you are looking to find, what gap you can fill, then using the beauty of research design and methods to collect data and analyse it to produce new understandings about a subject.
Here it doesn't sound like there is any passion, not all students have passion but by opening up university to more people-not pointing at the op here-universities have become responsible for pleasing the masses. They're paying, so they are owed. Rather than students having to prove themselves to universities, universities are having to prove themselves to students.
The place of research is becoming blurred. That is why academic reputation is so hard to achieve, and why those seeking it are expected to work hard.

I wonder how many on here work in academia out of interest?

OP, please don’t worry about some of the replies on this thread. There is nothing wrong with you wanting to concentrate on your dissertation and not do extra work on behalf of your supervisor. I would do the same. I hope you manage to sort things out with your supervisor.

chav, I said I was going to walk away from this thread as it really upset me but I just wanted to respond to your specific point about the tuition fees. I appreciate that from your point of view it may be frustrating being seen as a consumer item, which is not what you signed up to.
However from a student’s point of view it is a legitimate concern, I’ve got myself into debt to do this course, and I do expect to get something back for that money. Of course if i wasn’t putting any work in, I couldn’t expect to get anything back, but I am, so I do. And the fact that I’ve paid so much can’t help but make me feel differently about being asked (not asked-told) to work for free. I really resent being told I have no passion, I can’t be arsed, etc. I work really really hard on this course, and in 2 part time jobs (if I was a junior doctor, as you said earlier, I wouldn’t be doing this). I moved away from family and friends to do this course in this university, I’m trying really really hard to do my best, and it’s massively hurtful to be told I’m not bothered because I queried being asked to work on my supervisors behalf like this. Sure the pursuit of knowledge is the point, but if I didn’t want the certificate, I could have stayed at home and pursued knowledge for free.

Thanks to others for kinder responses xx

Just because you are paying for education doesn't mean you should be able to receive the degree without doing what you were supposed to

That’s very true, but what the OP is supposed to do to get their degree is their own research, assignments and dissertation. Not undertake extensive additional training and data collection to support a supervisor’s grant proposal for free. Your passion for research is admirable (and I have similarly warm and fuzzy feelings about research design myself!) but not all masters students need to be passionate about research. There are plenty of masters qualifications for professionals who don’t want to do research and just want to get ahead in their field. And they should be able to pay their fees and get on with their work without feeling guilty about the wider academic community.

Fish I haven't said anything to be nasty. I'm just trying to share the bigger picture. You told me I was being patronising-I wasn't.
I didn't say you can't be arsed. I said tell her you can't be arsed then because even when I explained the cultural expectations etc you were defensive. Because you were annoyed at having been asked.
My comments about students as consumers was not directed to you individually-I did point this out. It was a valid statement and again not intended to upset anyone. But what people don't consider is the pressure from above for research output. Grants, projects, papers, all contributing towards the REF. Staff have it from both ends, they have to produce, they have to give to students. In some ways, particularly from PhD up, there is somewhat of a duty to contribute. At your level, not so much, but there is expectation from individual supervisors.
I have merely tried to point out the benefits or disadvantages from pursuing or not doing what you have been asked to. I believe the advantages would be demonstrated in references and perhaps dissertation marks-the wider searching would benefit your perspectives and understanding but that's not to say you have to do it. The disadvantages may be to reputation if you wanted to pursue a PhD-sounds like you don't but for studentships people have to be remarkable-to stand out as a grafter and in it for the long haul. That is hard to do at masters level where the level is already high.
I do get that you don't want to do someone's donkeywork. Of course you don't-nobody does. But a foot on the ladder starts somewhere. Yes you aren't a junior doctor but as a full time student your degree is your full time job-it is expected to be your first concern.
I haven't been massively hurtful. You don't sound particularly passionate about your project, I could be wrong. I haven't criticised you. You asked for advice, I gave it, that's the thing with advice and it can't all just be kind. Sometimes the best advice is the hardest to hear (not saying that's mine btw).

It also depends on what grade you're looking for.

Run of the mill questionnaires for more people, or show that you can learn and master a new method for you.

You entered a commitment with your supervisor, who had expectations of you doing a set type of work, which was of interest to her.
You are bailing out. She has basically told you to do what you like for your thesis. It's yours. But asked you to keep your end of the deal with her.

And how much she has to take up students or not, depends on her department. I have never been told to take students even as a junior Post-Doc. Either having students was useful for my CV at the time, or it was a topic that was of interest to me.
It's different in departments with too many students, but then I'm sure there's competition for supervisors.

That’s very true, but what the OP is supposed to do to get their degree is their own research, assignments and dissertation. Not undertake extensive additional training and data collection to support a supervisor’s grant proposal for free.
Of course not.
However there is getting a degree and making a mark. They are different things. To make a mark takes more, to work for nothing. It was the indignant-why should I do that-attitude I was challenging, not the question itself. Posters suggesting it is a good thing to do have been called snide and patronising. I am not attacking at all, merely trying to offer a viewpoint which the OP may have found useful but unfortunately it hasn't been taken that way.
I focused on abandoning half the data collection because you don't know how to use the equipment as a point to suggest module training would be beneficial. Not that she should be doing loads extra. There's a reason for the design, to produce the data. If the data is not collected, how will it influence the results. At masters level this should be acknowledged, at least in a discussion of the methods.

As an MA/PhD you are still v much a nobody. To a point you are expected to suck it up and do the donkeywork-because at one point they had to.

I am an academic.

This used to be the culture. It is no longer the culture - and it should not be. I was expected to work 80 hour weeks and do anything requested by my supervisor. Nobody should be expected to do this.

In OP's case she is entitled to say no - but in saying no she/he should take into account that this could reduce the mark for the dissertation, and affect references and PhD chances. If still happy to say no, i.e. not aiming for a top mark for the dissertation, nor wanting to stay in academia, fine.

It is not BTW the case that academics are paid per project they supervise. Taking on dissertation students is often extra workload for no extra pay. Putting a lot of time into a dissertation student is done to help the student, rather than for the supervisor to get anything back in return.

i'm an academic and supervise 4-6 MSc students per year. I have occasionally asked a student if they would like to help with a project (ie. data collection or analysis) that isn't part of their official MSc, to get CV points. but I always make it clear that this is optional and there is no penalty if the student doesn't want to.

I think your supervisor is being cheeky here and that you shouldn't have to do the extra work. But as others have said, if you aim to go into academia you might want to get the brownie points.

There are plenty of masters qualifications for professionals who don’t want to do research and just want to get ahead in their field.

But, nonetheless, getting a distinction in a masters almost always requires producing a high quality dissertation with good research. So getting a high mark in the masters is reliant on showing ability to do research.

I am absolutely astonished at these responses. Perhaps it's a disciplinary difference, but we are explicitly not allowed to get students to do unpaid work for us! If I want a student to do work on a grant, the grant would contain the funding, I would pay the student the university's set rate from the grant (which is not decided by me).. I pay my undergraduates to do work for me via internships (which are paid at my uni, there are no free internships at all) and at Masters/PhD I pay the research rate for postgraduates.

My guess would be that you are in something like psychology, where there is very much a team culture, which can work well if you want to stay in the field and are going to get on papers where you collect data and it's written up fully by others. But this is not the case here, the lecturer has admitted this is for a separate grant, and will require you to train to use equipment not needed for your Masters now.

So, the answer should be no. She shouldn't be asking, and I consider it very poor form at best and exploitative at worst to get your Masters students to work for free on your grants (especially as the clue's in the title: grant, that means grant of money given to you to conduct the work).

I appreciate my university's clear stance on unpaid UG and PG labour and make sure my colleagues know about it as well as there's always a few letting students 'help out' for the experience when they have pots of money/grants to pay for it, they just would prefer people to work for free. Trades for course credit at UG level are still just about allowed, I think, and there's nothing wrong with training to use equipment if you need the actual training, but getting you to run days worth of experiments on top of that additional to your Master's work is really off.

I’m not abandoning half the data. It’s a very small aspect of my study, which I have not abandoned but adapted. I said this in the first post. I didn’t come here looking for advice about the research design, but I don’t see how I haven’t kept up my end of the bargain with the supervisor as there was no bargain? She was told she had to take a student, I’m the student. She told me this, I’m not saying anything that I don’t know to be a fact.
Can people really not see why I might find some of the comments on this thread upsetting? I said they were patronising and snide, because they can across that way to me, not because I can’t be criticised.