Is this a problem? If so what should I do?

[NCAcademic]

I've changed my name for this, because it is something I can't talk about but....I am peripherally involved in an (at best) ethically complex situation and I need advice.

I know someone who is...involved with someone who used to be their PhD student (but isn't anymore, because they moved). The student isn't finished, and it was the student's idea. First question--is this ethically compromised in and of itself? (I have an opinion, but I'm curious as to the responses of others).

Second problem, the academic involved is in a senior position in their new job that means when a phd student really gets into trouble, they are the person who decides what happens and facilitates that. Is this an ethical issue? If so what (if anything) should I do about it? The academic involved knows that I know, not sure about the student.

I am a junior academic in the department in an unstable employment situation. I have research collaborations with the supervisors of the student concerned, and the academic concerned, but not the student. I would be grateful for any and all advice.

I'm not sure I follow you properly.

So: a senior academic is in a sexual relationship with a former PhD student. That's not necessarily an ethical issue as it stands. (It might be a bad idea, but that's different to an ethical issue). However, if the relationship started while they were still in a supervisor-supervisee relationship, then we have a problem. Which is the case?

The second part is unclear. Do you mean the academic in question is now in a role like head of PGR (postgrad research), and so is the person who oversees problems in PhD supervision? I don't think that constitutes an ethical issue per se. Whether the academic is a wise choice for that role depends on the answer above.

I think it is only an ethical issue if that PhD student gets into trouble and needs the academic's decision making. If you see what I mean.
This and worse goes on all the time in my experience, for your own sake don't get involved.

Plus, it sounds like the academic and student are at different institutions now. Is that the case? If so, the only relationship they have left is their personal one - the academic's decisions in their admin role can't affect the student, and the academic isn't involved in the student's supervision. What do you want to happen by "doing something about it"?

The relationship began at the academic's farewell. The student is still enrolled, but no longer a student of the academic. The responsibility role in question is much like PGR research head, yes--not in the UK, so a slightly different system. So no, they could not influence the situation of the student with whom they are involved, but they do have a lot of responsibility for a number of other students.

I don't even know that I want to do anything about it. I am uncomfortable with the whole thing, and wish I didn't know about it. I suspect the institution where the academic is now would frown upon the situation, and I wonder where my obligations lie but I don't have an axe to grind here.

I know an academic who married his PhD student. I am quite certain they got together while he was still supervising her and no-one batted an eye. This was in the 80's though, so possibly different times!

Not your bed not your business. I don't see any real potential for professional misconduct here if the senior has no influence if his/her lover's passing etc. And they didn't abuse their position to instigate the affair.

The relationship began at the academic's farewell.

In that case, I don't see an ethical problem. They may well have been biding their time until any conflicts of interest were out of the way.

I really, really hope the student has other supervisors who can provide her with references, so she's not at the mercy of her former supervisor if her relationship breaks down.

(Privately, I'd probably be a bit "eww" if it was a fawning acolyte / god complex couple (they do happen)... )

It is really quite common for PhD students to become involved with academic members of staff, including their own supervisors, and given they are both adults, usually in their early/mid-twenties upwards, I do not personally think this is a noteworthy issue except of course that the supervisor should not in any way have any a supervisory relationship (so no assessment, sitting on examining board, supervisor for the academic). If it was at a farewell occasion, I don't see the issue. Several of our staff are married to former PhD students.

It is really quite common for PhD students to become involved with academic members of staff, including their own supervisors, and given they are both adults, usually in their early/mid-twenties upwards.

It is also quite common for such relationships to be unbalanced in terms of "power" and manipulative, particularly when this is a large age gap. This:

I really, really hope the student has other supervisors who can provide her with references, so she's not at the mercy of her former supervisor if her relationship breaks down.

and worse.

What the OP describes is not a disciplinary matter but if it started before the academic stopped supervising then it would be.

It is also quite common for such relationships to be unbalanced in terms of "power" and manipulative, particularly when this is a large age gap I agree they could be and would be totally inappropriate at undergraduate level, but in people in their mid-twenties upwards, often with a young supervisor, I've never actually seen that. I know at least three couples who have gone on to have children, families, I don't see what is sinister about people meeting in what essentially a workplace and getting together, as in other workplaces.

I totally agree that the person shouldn't be in power over the supervisee, so if they are, this should be addressed immediately, but I can't get worked up about what consenting adults do over the age of 21.

Sexual harassment and the abuse of power are not the same as starting a consensual relationship, even with an age gap. If the student has no dependence on the new partner (for references, on boards) etc, that's fine- it sounds like in this situation, though, this may be ambiguous if they have an 'overseeing' capacity, and the sensible thing to do would be for the former supervisor to nominate someone else to take that role. If it's very unlikely that it will be needed, they might wait til any problem actually arises.

I guess my gut instincts are very different because for every case that worked out there were tons of cases that didn't - and caused the junior party to leave academia. Presumably different cultures in different subject areas.

It is a very grey area. Senior academic (head of group/department) has long-term relationship with junior academic - fine. Senior academic has short term fling with junior academic, to boost their ego, deal with ageing, having given junior woman the impression that it was going to be more - not so fine. I have seen the latter happen many times.

Sexual harassment and the abuse of power are not the same as starting a consensual relationship, even with an age gap.

Except they sometimes are the same. Take a look at the relationships board for plenty of examples of abusive relationships that are technically consensual but have a huge power imbalance (physical, financial, professional, etc.) as a basis for the abuse.

It is not ethnical behaviour for a supervisor to have a sexual relationship with their own PhD student. It doesn't matter how common it is (or used to be - it's a lot less acceptable these days), or that you know some personal examples of where it all worked out fine. It's not ok behaviour because it creates a conflict of interest and makes the PhD student vulnerable to immense professional repercussions.

Check out #timesupacademia on Twitter for examples. As I saw on one tweet: it's bad pedagogy to fuck the person you're supposed to be teaching.

The key here is what your institutions policy says on this matter.

Having been involved in a relationship within an academic institute I know that at the very least most institutions require the relationship to be formally declared so that SHOULD a situation arise in which decision making would be compromised the institution knows and they can make alternative arrangements.

There will be something written in a policy somewhere. Look it up, and follow the guidelines.

What does the academics new role have to do with it? They're at a different institution so would never be in the situation of responding to any disciplinary issues regarding the student.

I notice we're all assuming student is female and academic male!

It makes the PhD student vulnerable to immense professional repercussions.

Yes.

Even if the senior person is at a different institution, they are a senior member of the same research field. They will be involved in organising conferences, sitting on fellowship panels, advising about permanent positions, editing journals .... There is huge potential for that senior academic to have professional influence over the career progression of the junior person.

I've seen lots of horrendous repercussions of relationships that weren't "disciplinary" matters as the senior academic wasn't in a formal supervisory role/based at the same institution, but nonetheless things went wrong and the junior person ended up being bumped out of academia.

And I would also comment that I have seen a couple of times the senior academic use their positions to push along the career of their junior partner, i.e. nepotistically.

(And titchy, I would be willing to bet that most such relationships are male in the more senior role. )

I don't see what is sinister about people meeting in what essentially a workplace and getting together, as in other workplaces.

But academia isn't comparable to most workplaces.

Senior academics have a much stronger influence on career progression of junior academics than in typical workplaces. As I wrote above, even if the senior academic is in a different institution, they have the potential to influence careers of junior academics through conferences, journals, panels, and just informal networks with the research field.

I think it is really illuminating to read stories on the #timesupacademia thread and other whistle blowing sites. There are stories of relationships with huge imbalance of power that started off consensually but ended with the senior person abusing their seniority to kill the junior academic's career. This has happened to a number of women in my own field.

(OP: I don't think you are obliged to do anything, particularly given your own insecurity of employment, as you are not involved.)

There is huge potential for that senior academic to have professional influence over the career progression of the junior person.

By that token no Professor should ever have any sort of relationship with a lecturer A even if they're at a different institution.

They're not the student's supervisor, so no conflict of interest, not will they be adjudicating over any issues the student might have, so again no conflict if interest.

Clearly if said prof gave a conference paper and got the student to co-present that would be quite dodgy, but that isn't happening.

Shoudl OP do anything? Of course not. Apart from anythign else does OP not think that the student's current institutional heads and supervisor are aware that the relationship exists it's one for them to deal with if they think the student is at an unfair advantage or being taken advantage of.

By that token no Professor should ever have any sort of relationship with a lecturer A even if they're at a different institution.

That's not what was said above. There are scenarios that are clearly fine, and scenarios that are clearly manipulative/abusive (disciplinary matters) - and a lot that are in between.

There is always risk involved (in terms of career progression) if an early career researcher gets involved with a senior researcher within the same research field. In a typical workplace, you can move to a different firm if the relationship goes sour. It is much harder to move to a completely different academic research field to get away from your ex and from the influence of your ex. (And of course being around their ex can be equally hard for the senior researcher.)

Check out #timesupacademia on Twitter for examples. As I saw on one tweet: it's bad pedagogy to fuck the person you're supposed to be teaching

I completely agree with this which is why I think anyone thinking of getting involved with a PhD student should relinquish their teaching responsibilities, indeed any responsibilities for them whatosever!

I do not condone sleeping with your own students. Ever.

In this instance, the supervisor is leaving, though, so not continuing to teach them at all. I don't see why, once having left the institution, people should be forced to be apart when they are adults and there is no longer a conflict of interests/potential for power imbalance in the same way as a teacher/pupil relationship.

Now, if not in a teaching relationship, if you choose to sleep with and have relationships with people in the same field, I really think that is your look out! I wouldn't, and never have, but I don't find it intrinsically wrong. I do agree that often men shaft their wives academic careers, I've seen that a huge amount of times, but that's kind of how most relationships work out in these patriarchal times and nothing unique to academia.

People aren't getting lectureships til they are early 30's, are they only supposed to date the same age til their early 30's? Or people outside academia- how are they supposed to find these people with their 60 hour weeks?

This is not the same sexual harassment or abuses of power, which are WRONG at every single stage of the career, and at every example of an age gap. Anyone who is not promoting people, dropping them off papers etc because they were in a relationship (which I have seen many times) is in the wrong and should be called to account.

Thanks all, for such varied opinions. TBH, the senior academic is also senior in MY field, and I am...concerned at best that he is going to push ME out because I knownot because I am going to do anything about it, but because I know at all (and am not 100% in approvalan opinion, BTW, for which I was ASKED, I thought in good faith...more fool me). I guess that says all I need to know about the ethics of the academic.

I guess my gut instincts are very different because for every case that worked out there were tons of cases that didn't - and caused the junior party to leave academia

This.

It is ethically dodgy. I think all students should just simply be off-limits.