Doing PhD without Masters

[habobo]

Hellooo - I desperately need some advice.

I've been offered PhD places (without funding) at a few unis. Not top 5, but 1994 group types, and they suit my theoretical approach and topic - in the realm of comparative politics/ theory. I'm waiting on a few studentship results but I think its extremely unlikely as I don't have an MA - (I was rejected from one I thought I had the best chance with, although I'm being considered for another one at the same uni).

I've also been offered an Mres place at university generally perceived to be a top 5.

I have about 4 years of experience in NGOs (where i got research experience)/ journalism/ writing which is very relevant to my topic.

Now I guess the sensible approach would be to go for the Mres and try again for funding with a Masters. But the fees are equivalent to two years of PhD fees. It includes taught modules with weekly assessments which I will struggle with combining with work (part-time from home) and my one year old. I'm really worried if I don't get a distinction it would all be a waste, and even if I did, its obviously no guarantees for research funding.

I spent quite a while (maternity leave) coming up with a topic and writing my proposal (have interviewees lined up already ect) and I really feel like I want to get started - my last interview they said they didn't think I need any research training and I could start straight away - although they rejected me from funding :'(.

So basically, I'm really tempted just to go for one of the PhDs and self fund - is that totally mad? I know it used to be very looked down on, but after stalking around 100 phd students it looks kinda normal now. Actually THREE years of PhD fees are still less than some taught masters at London unis .

But skipping masters seems to be very rare in my field now - I couldn't actually find another current PhD student who did it.

Looking at these forums, its unlikely I would be able/ want to stay in academia as I can't move from city to city for work after I finish. My vague plan would be to get any part time job (if I'm not still where I am now) and then to freelance write/ do my own projects on the side.

You have been working in a relevant field for 4 years. Most graduates do a Masters because they don't have enough experience to go from the spoon feeding of many Bachelors courses to the independent thinking of PhD.
If you are confident that you will get what you want out of it and can afford to self fund plus childcare then go for it.

I know that some places will require you to do the Masters training during your PhD because that’s a condition of their funding (if they’re part of a doctoral training partnership). It doesn’t matter whether you are funded by that DTP or not, all PhD students are expected to have the same training. Some will have already done this in a Masters, others won’t. You might want to check this though.

I think the days of looking down on self-founders are going/gone. If you complete in 3/4 years, publish well (or whatever your field expects), then no one will care how your PhD was funded.

@Callamia - Ah I see. One of the unis said I need to do research training, the other two said it was optional - I'll check that out.

@water. Actually that is another benefit to phd over masters. There's more flexibility with what I attend so will be far easier than childcare.

For the masters it will need to be almost full time nursery. And 10,000 in tuition, just to rewrite my proposal and do half a literature review

An MRes would definitely allow you to access more funding options.

Most PhD candidates start out as MPhil/PhD candidates and are only on track for a PhD after their upgrade, which in your field possibly involves the submission of a chapter, a chapter plan, and a mini-viva. I know some institutions accept the MRes thesis in lieu of the upgrade. It might be worth checking with your chosen institutions if they are willing to do that? Then having an MRes would allow you to potentially have not only a funded PhD, but also a shorter one.

@Jallebi

Thanks, that's good to know. I will check out some other MRes courses also and see if I can find any cheaper ones/ ones that are more dissertation heavy.

OK, the first and brutal thing to say is that: many universities will take anyone at PhD level. They need the cash. In some cases, I've seen people who were really not suited, intellectually or emotionally, to PhD work or life accepted. They then struggled through a miserable 4 years. It is not like the fierce competition there is for top places at BA level. I am sure this is not you - you sound very clued up and aware and bright - but do be aware that the institution's interests and your interests are not necessarily the same. You need to be savvy about this - we're talking a bit emotional and financial investment here.

Secondly, a PhD is like the intellectual equivalent of the SAS. While support is a bit better now than it used to be (I was just told "Here's a pen, there's the British Library, see you in four years"), it can be an absolutely brutal experience. If you don't want to go into academia, and you don't need this qualification, why on earth would you put yourself through psychological and financial hardship and stress to do this? You could become a freelance writer now, and spend that time/energy building a career with an agent.

Thirdly, you say that you're interested in a heavily theoretical area of politics. If that is the case, I would strongly advise doing a relevant taught MA, not a research MA. To do theory properly - which is not the way that it's often done in the social sciences - you need a really, really strong grounding in philosophy. In some areas, we're talking about tackling some of the hardest, most challenging books ever written. To understand Laclau, you need to have read Marx. To understand Derrida or Levinas, you need to have understood Heidegger and Kant. To understand Deleuze, you need to know Spinoza. Not having these reference points leaves you really exposed. Having support to tackle them is important; in many ways, (and this is a controversial viewpoint) I actually think the best training to be a critically aware social scientist comes from the arts and humanities!! Don't forget that you can take an MA in one area (e.g. political philosophy) and then change departments for a PhD to politics. If you were doing a kind of practice-based thing, something ethnographic for instance, it would be bit different - your experience there becomes more relevant.

I also think, with PPs, that you would be able to unlock funding for a PhD if you got a good MA grade.

@whiskyowl

I work as a part time journo for an online publication and do extra freelance non-fiction writing on the side now. There have been jobs at research institutes in my field that I have not been able to apply to because I do not have a research degree. I do a lot of analysis and its really helpful to have a further qualification to publish in the best pubs. A research degree would be an advantage in my field. Of course if I was offered an academic job I would take it (I would take any job at my local unis, but would only be able to move for something semi-permanent). My point is that I have other options/ reasons for doing it.

I'm not sure if where I applied would take anyone at PhD level - I had interviews everywhere, and there are limits to how many students supervisors can have at most places. The deps at RG unis weren't veru suitable, but one place where I applied is still a top ten uni/ dep. When it comes to people paying for a PhD they are better off with international students.

My proposal has a strong theoretical component. I have a background in philosophy in undergrad. I'm quite confident with the theory and have discussed my proposal with the best academic working on this theorist (imo) and attended his reading group. Unfortunately couldn't supervise because there is no one at that uni to supervise the case study.

My proposal also has an ethnographic case study - I wouldn't be able to do this case study if it wasn't for my work, as it's somewhere difficult to access/ there's massive empirical knowledge gaps about this area.

There is absolutely no way in hell I could have written my proposal immediately following an MA done straight after my BA. This is my youngest sister's level and, as much as I love her, we are not at comparable stages - she still needs help for essays, and is very reliant on being spoon fed. I know of many other similar MA students. Both the theoretical and case study side of my proposal came from at least 4 years of working (half the time abroad) and reading. I've published about 200 articles in my name - its not a national newspaper, but it is somewhere where some academics in my field publish the occasional op-ed. To be honest, I find it really frustrating that, according to entry requirements, my sis would be a better bet for a PhD than me.

I just don't have 10,000 for fees and another 10,000 plus for childcare on top of rent and living. And as I will keep up my p/t from home job, I need flexibility in when to attend. I also just really want to do my project.

You are right, if I were to do a taught MA it would certainly be in continental philosophy. There was a distance course in Manchester Met I was considering, but otherwise I couldn't move to Warwick, and Kingston would not be suitable - also the theorist I'm focusing on - or his main influences - wasn't really on any of these courses (apart from Kingston, and given a totally different interpretation.) Of course, it would be great to study other theorists as well, but again, this is tens of thousands of pounds here.

To be honest, as long as its a half decent uni, and there's a decent supervisor and I have the flexibility I need, I'm not that bothered if they only want me for the 4 grand a year.

Oh well. Maybe a miracle will happen and I'll get funding.

But you clearly haven’t looked at Government Postgraduate Loans!

Would this make any difference? (I intended to link to the MA loans but you’ll see the Doctoral loans first.)

Thanks @Grauch

Yes I have. I partly have really worries about paying it back, especially since I'm on the old band of student loans where I'm paying back from a 17,000 salary. I've done the maths and that combined with the new loan would be near unaffordable on an average salary...though this is a worry I could just defer to the future as many do, I'm a lone parent on a single income so I do worry!

And then there is childcare expenses/ lack of flexibility when combining with the childcare and my job - this is also what worries me with an MA. A combination of using most of my savings and taking out a loan might be able to pay for it - but then I would absolutely have to get funding for a PhD (alternatively my savings would just about cover PhD fees). So seems like a bit of a gamble no?

Mmm ... Yes. I don’t really have any opinion on how you should proceed - but do understand the impatience to start, without any intervening stage.

Yeah...I have some brilliant/ funded friends doing PhDs who have had to change/ narrow down their topic after they start, or who have become "stuck" at one point. I literally can't afford to do this in my situation, and have gone to some lengths to make sure my project is feasible/ well planned - eg by doing a chuck of the literature review, notes for each chapter and a list of interviewees ect. I guess this is why I'm impatient.

We don't take any old PhD student (RG uni). In fact, we have strict instructions not to take self-funded students unless high quality and might stand a chance of funding in a different environment (there's very few funded places per doctoral training college). I don't take them unless they are superb, as dragging below par PhD students through is a complete nightmare (and sometimes a legal one).

In your situation, I might just crack on and start a PhD, as you can get three years of £4000 for your one year of taught Masters. You are very unlikely to get Masters funding now, it's very rare unless part of a 1 + 3, so you'd be paying full for a Masters, hoping to get PhD funding, but my experience of PhD funding is that it's extremely competitive and you might have to move as well.

If you have got a plan for your career both within academia and without, extending what you are doing now, I'd say go for it.

On my MA taught course we had several PhD students who had skipped MA but joined us for the research modules (Durham)

@darkwinter - thanks for that insight. I did feel it was similar at the unis I applied to - it was a fairly rigorous application process, and the other PhD students looked very well qualified and active, including those who seemed to be self-funded.

I'm still waiting on a couple of PhD university studentships which I was encouraged to apply to - I didn't broach the subject myself as I was told I would be laughed at without an MA - will hear after Easter, though I know its unlikely.

I do feel the MA is a bit of a gamble. I'd feel awful if I didn't get a distinction/ funding, and not sure if me and my baby are ready for quite so much nursery, let alone the cost of it.

I did a PhD without a masters, but like pp have said, I could do this because I had several years working in the field.

I couldn't afford to do a masters anyway. My PhD was funded though, it didnt pay much but better than nothing and far better than paying fees.

I have no regrets at all, it worked out really well for me.

It is important to stay focused on completion, it is very easy to get bogged down and let time slip away. Set realistic timescales and be aware that you may need to cut back on some areas (and/or expand others) as you go, otherwise your research can balloon and it can be difficult to find an end point.

If you have no natural end point (i.e. when funding runs out) it is easy to get carried away and you cannot allow that to happen, or you will end up needing to get a job to survive and then wont have the time for study, and will not complete.

Having the focus and organisation to complete will depend a lot on your personality, but also on your relationship with your director of studies, so choose carefully. My DoS semi retired and lost interest half way through when his grand idea failed to give the result he had expected and I was pretty much abandoned for a while. I was very lucky to have a good second supervisor and that he was willing and able to take over.

Good luck.

Thanks @ghost that sounds like good advice

I'm a philosopher. I haven't seen anyone jump from BA to PhD since the early 90s. I appreciate what you say about practical experience but at the end of the day you are interested in a theoretical topic. Without an MA you may have a number of problems:

• breadth of knowledge. An MA allows you to widen your general knowledge before you focus on your thesis. This gives you a stronger and wider basis from which to specialise.

• coping with independent study. Th MA links the mainly taught experience of the BA with the mainly research experience of the PhD. There is a strong emphasis on original and independent thinking in a PhD and it might be difficult to achieve this without the stepping stone of the MA.

• Usually the MA dissertation helps focus your research interests. You can use it to either decide you've had enough of a line of inquiry or by confirming that you want to do more along those lines.

In sciences it is quite common to go straight from undergrad to PhD. I know many who did the same. I managed to get full funding without an MSc/MA

@booboost - thanks, I'm applied to politics deps. Discipline wise, my proposal is comp political theory/ area studies and I have an empirical case study related to my work.

I'm sure an MA would be beneficial, just not sure if worth it for my situation- I guess it would depend.

My undergrad uni was excellent for my field, but a lot of MA courses were reversioned undergrad ones. Actually sometimes, MA/BA students took the same courses, MA students just had longer essays.

In sciences it is quite common to go straight from undergrad to PhD. I know many who did the same. I managed to get full funding without an MSc/MA

The main research council across engineering and physical sciences EPSRC now insists on a taught year of courses (integrated PhD) for those who don't have masters. Across maths/theoretical sciences it is virtually unknown to go from bachelors to PhD these days. Even with 4 years MSci + 3-4 years PhD, it is hard to compete internationally against those with 9 years of university education (3 year Bachelor, 2 year Masters, 4 year PhD is not uncommon).

Actually that is another benefit to phd over masters. There's more flexibility with what I attend so will be far easier than childcare.

OP, it's true that you don't need to attend many taught courses. But don't underestimate the amount of time needed to write a PhD. It's hard enough for people working on PhDs full-time, without family commitments and without part-time jobs. Many PhD students who work part-time on their PhDs can't keep up the momentum and end up not finishing.

OP, I used to be in politics/area studies (at previous institutions than the one I've just left - all top 10 in their subject areas, for whatever little that's worth). It is very, very unlikely, I am afraid, that you'll get funding without having completed as master's of some description, not least because that's proof that you are capable of completing a longer piece of primary research independently. So even where it's not an essential criteria for the application, in practice, most people you'll be up against will have one, and that will edge them in front of you.

Are your published pieces academic or journalistic in scope? If they are academic (so, say, they are published in the Journal of Comparative Politics, rather than, say, Third World Quartley or World Politics) you could make a good case that this is commensurate with a Master's and be in with a chance - unless it's an essential, and there's no mention of "or equivalent"

As for it being ridiculous: I agree - BUT nowadays, you can't be recruited at even post-92's without being in possession of a completed PhD, and usually at least one published monograph. A PhD is no proof you can teach, as we all know - but it is proof you can see a major project through to completion. I share your frustration, but if you want in on the system, you have to comply with the boxes they want you to be able to tick.

Be aware, too, that although you have clearly invested a lot of time and effort in planning your thesis already, you would be incredibly unusual, within a politics-type department, to end up doing precisely what you think you will now. Most students over-estimate, by several degrees of magnitude, what they will be able to achieve in 3 years (plus extension) - they are accepted for study based on the very broad feasibility of the area that they want to focus on, and the availability of a broadly (broadly defined ) appropriate supervisory team. There then follows months of cutting down, revising, honing and recrafting of the research questions, and the final thesis often bears only very cursory relationship to the original application...

If you think I can be of help, feel free to PM me - but if you are going self-funding, and are looking for think tank/ODI type roles, then take a place at the most prestigious university you are offered (for politics, I would be careful about accepting non top 10 places from employability in this type of area your posts seem to suggest that you are interested in). For area studies, I would broadly say the same. If you are really leaning towards academia, first choice should be where the leader of your specific topic (either on that theory or that specific case study) will be on your supervisory team, second choice where one of the leading UK people is, and after that, top 10 in either politics or your specific area (so eg SE Asian studies) Remember, too, that Professor Big Swinging Dick may well be a shite supervisor - but her reference will count big time in the quest for a job.

Good Luck!

@user150463

Of course it will be hard - I plan to cut down my P/T work, it will be very limited.

@Hefzi - I know its extremely unlikely, I'm not holding my breath. I wouldn't even have applied without unis' encouragement.

The research jobs/ institutes I was thinking of applying to is niche stuff in places I have some connections with through previous work. I wasn't thinking of something as prestigious as ODI type stuff to be honest.

Thanks for that advice. I feel inspired to make a last ditch attempt to find a co-supervisor at the uni with the best theorist - (he agreed to supervise, but there were limited options there when it came to the area studies part.) I may message you with my final options at one point!

It's not the PhD I have a problem with, more the MA bit

Go for it, OP! And shout if you need owt

Just quick update - surprisingly I got offered PhD funding at one of the unis - a 1994 group type, not top 10, but comfortably top 20 with a small and friendly department, and I'm going to go for this over self-funding a masters! The funding also means I can top up to afford a decent amount of childcare.

Thanks for all the advice again.