Teaching and Students - I feel like crying!!

[berryupset]

Hi all, so I'm an SL currently teaching a module to over 300 first year students. I have worked so hard over the summer on turning round this module, which essentially has been failing. I think it's well organised now and although I have to deliver certain content which is quite theoretical, I have tried to make that content as relevant and interesting as possible.

I feel at the moment as though nothing is good enough for the students. I have basically given them the answer to their first formative assignment, but they still say they don't know how to do it. They say that they do not have enough support or contact hours, but routinely turn up to seminars having not done the reading. (So far today, I have had 60 students of which about three have prepared). They seem to want their hand held on absolutely everything, in a way that I can't sustain. Last week they had one section of a journal article to read. They complained that it was too hard. This week I've given them something much more accessible and, as I say, almost nobody has read it. I could go on ....

I feel that their expectations are to be taught as they were at school, which is completely unsustainable when the course is designed for so many students, and meanwhile the pressure from the university to meet their unrealistic expectations is very heavy. One other problem I have is that I don't have control over the seminar teachers on my module (who often are inexperienced and in some cases not very good) but do have to take full responsibility for the feedback the module receives.

I don't know what I'm expecting back here - I'm just demoralised I guess and wanting to vent! Anyone experienced anything similar?

Hi OP

I'm SL at an RG university and we have similar issues.

We start "coaching" our students right from the very very beginning- I'm talking open days here! Whoever runs the open days (especially post offer open days where we have more chance to actually talk to the students rather than just "selling" the programme) talks at some length about the difference between school and university making it very clear that at our university they will be expected to work very hard outside of class independently. We talk at some length about what that means and, actually, how exciting that can be!

Then when students first arrive, we hit them with it again in the first lecture of every module. We've used the gym analogy before to explain that they get out of their degree what they put in.

At the big welcome talk, we have 2nd/3rd year students there to talk to the newbies and we also get them to say a little something about independent learning as well. It sounds terrible but we always try and make sure these 2nd/3rd years aren't "typical" students from our university (from the SE, privately educated, posh, head-to-toe in Jack Wills) so that arriving students don't think "well it's okay for you".

We also have a teaching and learning contract which all students sign in their first seminars/workshops (we're humanities) which basically asks them to promise to put in effort, do the readings, read the Handbook etc.

After week one, when we're confident that students have settled we get very tough with students who aren't performing well. For example, at the start of each seminar I ask students for a show of hands if they've done the reading. Those that haven't I ask to leave the seminar. I've had a lot of grumblings about this in the past but the L/T contract we get them to sign protects us from their moaning and actually does eventually create a culture where students are working hard.

I make clear that they don't need to have understood the readings but they have to have at least done them. Our classrooms are then really nice conversational places where we can explore the readings together on the assumption that everyone's at least tried to understand them.

If there's a legitimate reason for a student not doing the readings, I ask that students email me in advance and I can give them something a bit more accessible to read if that's appropriate or I'll structure the seminar in such a way to not disadvantage them or I'll give them something else to do to then specifically report on (this might be reading a blog or watching a programme but they have to give an individual report on that so it's not really a cop-out).

It works well to do all of this stuff at the very beginning of the year so you create a good, hard-working culture from the get-go. There needs, however, to be some consistency across staff/modules; you need to be prepared for students grumbling at you; and you need to be prepared for students emailing with completely bullshit reasons for not reading or for them to come to you for help with planning their time.

Sadly we'd get beaten with the 'student experience' stick if we asked them to leave a seminar

try2hard We did when we first started coming down hard on it but we had a fantastic Director of Education.

She argued strongly (with the VC no less) that those students who don't read are affecting the experience of those who do bother so actually this is about student experience but it's about everyone's experience and the need to raise the standard of interactions in order for everyone to have a better experience.

Our student experience scores in NSS have increased since we started being strict!

I wish the powers that be where I am could understand that it negatively affects the student experience when we enable a culture in which reading is something to be ashamed of and hidden. I regularly see students lie to pretend they haven’t done any work because it goes against the dominant culture on our programmes.

It really is like teaching bottom set Y9.

Can I ask you all what you think about this?

Students in a big module I teach on are talking about a student generated FAQ to be distributed via our Student-staff committee.

My feeling about it is that I can't permit a document with any suggestion that it's "official" be distributed, particularly when most of them don't look at ether the module handbook (mine is very comprehensive with lots of information and advice) or the VLE (they email me instead). It undermines any control or authority we might want to have over the information that's officially dustributed for a course.

But I know I can get a bit defensive - I work so hard to be super-organised in these big courses, that I resent student lack of attention ...

I don't know what they want to put in the FAQ - I suspect it's all around trying to avoid or micro-manage the challenging bits of the module, where we give them - guess what - FREEDOM - to explore a topic they're interested in. But doing that is quite hard - learning is difficult!

Anyway - any ideas or responses (humanities, btw)?

I'd say that they can do that through moodle if you use that. It has a FAQ functionality and that way you control the content and it might get them to look at it.

Would the FAQ basically replicate information that's online or in your Handbook? In which case, no, I absolutely wouldn't permit it. Students need to learn to use the excellent materials we provide for them.

Last week I had a student email me asking for information about a workshop I'm running as part of my module. Apparently she couldn't find any information about it "anywhere". The last page in my module Handbook is a giant fucking red poster with the details on.

Yes, I've had emails like that. Asking me times of presentations etc "We can't find it anywhere on the moodle" Oh yes it's there.

I suspect the FAQ will be about trying to require me to answer stuff that they have to answer for themselves ... They are not prepared to be told: go and find out for yourself about X. This is what learning is.

Grrrr. I have great students, really, but they are so passive and anxious. We try to jolly them out of it, & also push them & challenge them out of it, but they don't take up the freedom this offers them, to fly. Or use the excellent materials we make for them. Grrrr

I’d be worried about a student created FAQs simply becoming yet another way for them to spread disinformation among themselves. I am just starting the annual correcting social media created misconceptions fultility that is dissertation supervision with our third years again. It’s so frustrating, particularly as they refuse to believe me rather than their peers. Because obviously I wouldn’t have a clue!

They get plenty of accurate information via the VLE but refuse to make use of it when they can rely on rumour and nonsense of FB instead.

I would also worry about a FAQ from the students, unless you were able to edit/give correct info. I do a FAQ about essays and exams and info on when I'm available over Christmas (answer, I'm not!) If it was more 'tips to help you cope with the course' then that would be fine if you could also contribute.

Maybe just have an FAQ where they pose the questions, you provide the answer and for every answer you just link to the module guide

I’d be worried about a student created FAQs simply becoming yet another way for them to spread disinformation among themselves.

Yes, this is exactly it.

And actually a colleague who was at the liaison meeting asked what it was they were not clear about, opened the VLE site for the course on the spot, and found, within about 30 seconds, the information they said either wasn't there or wasn't clear. And indeed, I had gone through aspects of the VLE with them in the 1st lecture!

Hmmmmm Your posts & my colleague's account reassure me. I am apt to become defensive - I work hard to make good courses with precise & specific documentation.

But I've got gormless students obviously.

But I've got gormless students obviously.

I think it’s just people. Colleagues are often just as bad for claiming that no one gave them information etc. The thing with students is that there are often so many of them so even a minority contacting you with stupid questions can feel overwhelming and frustrating. And, of course, because we really do spend a great deal of time making sure that accurate and high quality information is very easily accessible to them. So it’s even more frustrating when they clearly haven’t even bothered to look on the VLE.

I'm a secondary school teacher and teach tow A level subjects. I'm agog at this!

Am always lecturing my students about how at uni they will need to be independent and building in high level reading for them but some of them don't do it. I now see they continue on this path at university.

Depressing! There is a lot of handholding at A level. Much more than in the past. Now we wouldn't expect most of our students to even read a set text in advance. How we got here I am not sure.

The idea that they need or want videos is just genuinely pathetic.

I could tell you all my tactics but they might seem babyish...

arbitrary - I am Scottish and a woman too.

I know EXACTLY where you are coming from.

I’m perversely glad it’s not just me! Or not really. It’s irritating.

I don’t think we’d find your tactics babyish. Some of us are probably having to use them ourselves.

You only have to read the secondary school board on here to work out how we got here. Blind obedience to rules, punishments for using common sense , no opportunely to make their own judgements even about minor things like whether to take their jumper off if they are hot. Education has become a very joyless thing, total observance of the mark scheme etc etc

Then we wonder why when they are given the option to fly they don't take it , that they are too frightened to go off at a tangent .They have had years of sticking rigidly to a syllabus , they are drowning in debt and desperate to fit in. My ds( RG university) said that no one joins societies because they are interested in the subject per se ( except perhaps sport) they join then to'demonstrate leadership' or some other catch phrase for a CV ,

Non of this is to excuse laziness or rudeness, but we don't seem to teach or value self sufficiency and responsibility and motivation , in fact we almost actively discourage it in schools now .

Disclaimer I am andnMA student and always do my reading! I cannot believe how good the materials and guidance and help and support is now compared to my first degree 30 years ago . But then we never really worried about the work , tutors pretty much treated you as an inconvenience and all most people needed was a 2:2 and very few people got Firsts . My dc's friends are petrified of a 2:2 and increasingly regard anything less than a first as pretty dismal ,

Ah But we 'teach' independent learning at my school. In lessons. With rigid schemes of work and outcomes.

I am not even joking.

You really couldn't make that up.

That said primula I do protest. I am not AT ALL like you describe. I continue to rage against the machine.

And now I wonder if more teachers are as you describe because university made them that way??

I am not crtisising teachers my dc teachers are fabulous but they are massively constrained by the system in which they operate. We don't seem to be able to allow children to suffer consequences, we control everything , rush in when they struggle and solve their problems etc etc.

Hmm... true , but parents do it too....

Yes I mean parents , we are just looking at sixth forms for dc3 and I would say in the 8 years since we were here with with dc1 anxiety levels about grades , debt, fear of failure, have rocketed amongst the parents let alone the children. They seem to want so many guarantees and be massively more invested. A significant minority want their dc to be spoon fed to the nth degree and are quick to complain about any inefficiency or injustice . So this is what their dc are learning is normal .

Well, I'm afraid you only have to look at some of the posts on the HE Forum here to see that. But parents get twitchy and often quite defensive/angry if one suggests that they are o we-invested.