Post-PhD and feeling like I'll never get an academic job....

[heroineinahalfshell]

Hello all. I'm new to this forum and wondered if I could pick brains/ask advice. Apologies if this turns into a treatise!

I received my doctorate (humanities subject, RG institution) in early 2016 and was fortunate to go straight into a 6 month teaching fellowship at another RG. At the end of that post I applied for a FT lectureship at that institution, and didn't get shortlisted ... The HoD told me I had more teaching experience than the eventual hire, but that I shouldn't apply for any other FT lectureships until I had publications (I had 2 articles under review at the time). Those 2 articles have since been published, both in highly regarded international journals. But I have only managed one academic interview since then, for a TF post I missed out on to an internal candidate. I'm continuing to go to big conferences in my field to try and stay in the loop.

I'm now working in a full time permanent post at a post-92 uni in learner development (basically teaching study skills and pastoral support). I enjoy my new role & the stability it offers, but desperately miss teaching, and am continuing to apply for permanent posts/longer TFs with no luck.

I am really torn about what to do next - I know I need to start putting together a monograph proposal and get it under contract, but I'm finding it hard to get motivation/time to do it on top of working FT. I feel like I'm not good enough for academia after so long out of it and seeing friends get great roles ahead of me. My current role feels like a safe option, particularly considering I'm not particularly mobile due to DHs job (and if we want to have kids in near future, mat leave is tempting). But theres not much opportunity for progression, and I DO want back into academia, and DH feels like we made a lot of sacrifices for my PhD and now I'm "not trying" to get a job.

What are my best options? Try to wrangle monograph into shape & then apply for jobs with a contract in my back pocket? Forget monograph for now and publish more articles? Apply for a Leverhulme/BA? (I've no idea what my next research project will look like right now...) Or bite the bullet and start applying for short TFs again that will decrease my job security? Feeling a bit lost and would appreciate any and all wisdom.

Heroine I didn't want your post to go unanswered, but I don't know that I have any magic solutions for you as it really does look like you are doing all the right things. You are applying for longer term lectureships/TFs, but as you know, the competition is high. That said- I don't know your field- is there any way in which you can slide or move yourself into a sub-discipline where there is more work? I see tonnes of jobs in one sub-discipline in my field, and almost none in the other, and I would definitely be pitching myself into the former quite heavily, even though my work fits more naturally into the latter, if that makes sense. I find often the PhDs that do best either have overwhelmingly large amounts of publications/impact for their stage, or they get a foot in the door through offering something where there's a gap in the market (e.g. lots of criminology courses were set up a few years ago and there's still a lot of jobs in that marketplace). Does that make sense? Can you re-position yourself? Or do your thing in a different 'applied' setting and get a longer term post-doc out of it that way? I've used the example on here of philosophers working in health-care settings before.

As for which direction to head in- I'd head in all at the same time, so definitely try Leverhulme/BA, but only with a shit hot project, and with a great referee behind you, someone who will benefit from you being around and will be honest about what you need to do to get grant money.

Without knowing your area, I can't say more. I know the post-doc period is tough and I know people struggling through it, their difficulty is landing a permanent job, but as I say, the ones I know who do it tend to be prepared to travel (even abroad), have a good publication/impact record already, and will go into niche/areas which have gaps in them rather than holding out for things that are the same disciplinary label as their PhD.

I DO want back into academia, and DH feels like we made a lot of sacrifices for my PhD and now I'm "not trying" to get a job.

But sadly, realistically, there aren't enough academic jobs to go around - nobody can do a PhD expecting to be able to stay in academia. Plenty of people come out with PhD from top groups, strong publications, strong track records of early career fellowships and still don't manage to find a permanent position.

I agree with pp that being flexible (about field, institution, location) is what most people have to do to get a job.

Not being mobile because of his job is your biggest problem. Most of the academic women I know have gone pretty much anywhere for a permanent job, and many live apart from their partners/husbands especially if they are academics too as you very rarely both get permanent jobs at one institution. Would he be prepared to move pretty much anywhere in the UK? Why do you have to stay for his job, but not he for yours? My husband was prepared to relocate for my first move after PhD and that's what led to my first permanent job. If you sit in one place and expect a lectureship, it just won't happen.

I even know academics living in different countries for two/three years post-docs. Most people do want to get living in the same place again if they can, but some don't. I know lots who commute- one Oxford or Cambridge, one elsewhere, one London one Northern Uni, this is not an unusual setup.

I'd go back to basics, what's your cv like? I've just done a round of recruitment and some cvs were shockingly bad! Also ask someone to check your cover letter.

I think you will have to be flexible in terms of location, anywhere you can commute to? We have lecturers in our department that live 2-3 hours away, they just come and stay the night before their lectures or somehow manage to get timetabling to agree for mid-morning starts

But do you really want an academic job? Your OP says you want more teaching, but you already are teaching? I wouldn't be pursuing a FT lectureship unless its research that is driving you. It sounds like you could craft your current role into being more teaching focussed, you could offer to lecture on modules relevant to your discipline (I never turn down a keen guest lecturer!) it sounds to me like you've got a good gig at the moment and unless you're desperate to do research then I'd stay put and just work on adapting your current role to suit.

I was in the same boat 20 years ago. It was the same landscape and I knew it would take at least 6 academic years with my humanities PhD to get tenure and that I'd be in low paid teaching jobs in that time. I also knew I didn't want to move anywhere and I wanted children so I went into HE Admin (now called professional services). 15 years later in my job role, during which time I had 3 children, I'm back doing some research. Not my PhD area but made easier by the skills I learnt from that which also served me well in terms of strategy writing, systems analysis and written communications in my more admin job role.

What I've learnt is that there are lots of PHDs out there - lots of us take prof services roles in HE. Other people go into policy and research organisations or into the charity sector. The civil service mops up a few - but for the greatest choice in many of these you may need to consider London.

I'm taking arts and humanities graduates here.

So there are options but it can be more difficult to see them if you, like me, just came through the School and then HE system.

But I would agree if you want academia it will be a long slog and you may need to move even for a 10 month mat leave cover just to get on the ladder.

Thanks for your replies. DH works for civil service and is more than happy to move if I get a permanent job (but there would need to be an office for him nearby, so London/Scotland/NE are best shouts), and I'm happy to commute for few years if needed but am worried about how that might work if we decide to have kids. He just got a promotion so he can't move for at least 2 years, but it's definitely not a case of his career being more important, just a case of striking a balance between his needs and mine. We're lucky that we're currently based in the NW so lots of uni's within commuting distance. So it's not that I'm totally immobile but not willing to go too far afield for a short-term post. I'm still applying for everything suitable though and would cross that bridge if it came to it.

I did get help with CV/cover letter from senior colleagues when I started out, but could probably do with a fresh pair of eyes on it now. I'm struggling to properly sell my current role - it's definitely something I should sell in terms of admin/pastoral experience. Try2hard my Uni doesn't consider my role to be "teaching" - I phrased it that way but we deliver 1:1 support & study skills workshops which we devise and deliver as a team. I am going to try and get my dept to support my application for HEA fellowship this year as hopefully that will boost my CV.

I really appreciate the replies - I'm totally prepared for academic posts to take time and am thankful I'm in a good position job-wise til then, I guess I'm just worried that there's some gaping hole on my CV that's preventing me from getting shortlisted for roles.

I guess I'm just worried that there's some gaping hole on my CV that's preventing me from getting shortlisted for roles.

You need to be as realistic as possible: are strong candidates without gaps on the CV, with current research, shortlisted? My guess would be that the answer is no: almost all posts are heavily oversubscribed these days.

I think what you're going through in terms of not getting shortlisted sounds fairly normal, and doesn't necessarily mean you won't eventually get something, but I think your OH is being a bit daft to think he won't relocate unless you get a permanent job and thinking you're 'not trying' to get jobs. He needs a reality check!

FWIW, I got my PhD in 2014. Two year teaching fellowship to end of last year. Applied for 5 jobs at the same place, 4 permanent and 1 temp. Not on the longlist for any of them. Got a couple of interviews elsewhere for temp jobs, but no offers. I have a book under contract, one article in a good journal accepted, and another two papers solicited for a journal special issue and an edited collection. So my publication record is less good than yours, but my teaching/admin experience is a bit more extensive.

It is draining and depressing but you have to keep going if an academic job is what you want. When I talk to other people at the same career stage, we all feel the same, more or less.

The reality is that a very small proportion of us will eventually land permanent jobs, and a larger number, who may be perfectly decent, won't.

(Mind you, I sound very calm and rational advising you but it's never how I feel! )

Any chance of you publishing on pedagogy linked to your current job in the interim, to keep your publishing record active? We have two academics on staff with this area of research and it seems to be gaining traction as a route into departmental positions - at least one of them is now back into teaching both her primary research interest as well as pedagogy courses for MA/ PhD...

I think you should definitely look to craft your role a bit. It doesn't include teaching? Well go and present the case to whichever big wig you need to that it should. Our study skills support people also come out and teach one off lectures on lots of modules for every single department in the uni. Do that and you expand your network, and if those people know you're looking for more lecturing work, guess who they'll suggest when they need a post filling quickly?

I had to check I hadn't gotten up earlier and wrote this post!

Realistically, you need to publish your way out. And even then, it's uncertain. The BA Postdocs are just starting to come out, and unless you have a clearly defined project, it's going to be tricky to meet the deadlines and look competitive - but still worth approaching institutions as they have their own internal first stage process.

Temporary Teaching Fellowships, in my discipline at least (philosophy), are often an exploitative route to nowhere. The teaching exp. is obviously great, but take more than one, and you'll almost certainly get trapped and have no time to publish. You have many of the same duties as a lecturer, and for considerably less pay.

I was v. choosy about what I applied for this year in terms of teaching. Those getting the jobs I applied for are typically coming off a postdoc (or more than one), have multiple pubs (as in 10+), and the best job they can get at this stage is a temporary teaching contract. That's pretty disgraceful to me, and we're at a point where I don't think it's ethical for dept's to keep taking on high numbers of PhD students (my institution alone has approx. 30 - and no way were there 30 jobs to apply for in the U.K - it's ridiculous).

I think it's difficult for people like your DH to understand how things are for ECR's. You can't just get a job locally (unless you're exceptionally lucky), and many don't understand that it's a bad use of time and resources to apply for anything and everything vaguely academic.

Others have given you great advice, so this is just a heads up to say you're not the only one :)

That's pretty disgraceful to me, and we're at a point where I don't think it's ethical for dept's to keep taking on high numbers of PhD students (my institution alone has approx. 30 - and no way were there 30 jobs to apply for in the U.K - it's ridiculous).

There's a longer discussion to have about this, but you know, when I finished my PhD about 20 years ago, there were very few jobs (and I work in a humanities field with a larger reach than philosophy).

As far as I know, there has never been a time when the availability of "good" jobs matched supply. I did 6 years in temporary, teaching fellow-like jobs before getting a permanent contract. And that was in the early 90s. When there was no research council, very little humanities research funding, and and next to no post-doc positions.

There were fewer PhD studentships or opportunities. Do we want to go back to that situation?

So I don't think it's worse or better, and universities have always trained more PhDs than there are academic posts. That's a given: I've heard the stat that in the humanities, only about 50% of PhDs get lectureships.

I would be really surprised if as many as 50% of PhDs get lectureships in any research field.

In my own field I thought the statistic was < 10% - and we don't take on that many PhD students. It's very unusual for students to self-fund, for example.

That's pretty disgraceful to me, and we're at a point where I don't think it's ethical for dept's to keep taking on high numbers of PhD students.

Is a PhD just to get an academic job? As pp said, has there ever been a time when a PhD graduate was very likely to get an academic job? Isn't it also the responsibility of the PhD students themselves to know the odds of getting an academic job before they embark on the PhD?

For the latter: on (undergraduate) university open days parents and students ask about graduate prospects. During PhD interviews my department makes very clear that the odds of getting academic jobs are quite low - we talk about what our PhD graduates end up doing. It is important for PhD students/ECRs to face the reality of the low odds of getting permanent positions and to find out what the statistics are before they start PhD/short term postdoc contracts.

That's a given: I've heard the stat that in the humanities, only about 50% of PhDs get lectureships

It's no way that high, nothing near that. I think less than 10% of finished PhDs go on to get a permanent academic job such as a lectureship, although of course many do not want to be academics!

It's no way that high, nothing near that. Oh right!

But my point is that 'twas ever thus ...

And in the past, there were fewer opportunities from PhD on. And guess who got those? More men than women started PhDs, and more men than women were appointed to permanent posts (or posts leading to permanent posts).

But it's difficult to talk about this, or give an historical perspective, because this current generation of ECRs are having a tough time, and it doesn't necessarily help to say that it was never any different.

Oh sure, I wish I hadn't been so naive. I was insulated from how awful it was from ECR's up until very recently. I have some responsibility, and at the same time, I wish people - usually senior academics who received their PhD around the time of the ark and walked straight into a permanent job - would stop giving poor advice along the lines of how there are jobs for those who work hard (implying that those who fail to secure one aren't somehow good enough).

Something has gone badly wrong when people have a stronger profile than many academics but bounce around from temporary job to temporary job with no real security. And few academics in my discipline acknowledge that this is the reality for most ECR's (those who haven't been pushed out).

I think the stats in philosophy hover around 10% of late. That wasn't the case so long ago. But I was never told to make a plan B: in fact, I still haven't been - in fact, I'm working on a research project that is expected to lead to something (not paid! But not devoting too much time to it either unless one of the various grants I'm applying for comes off). I think this does PhD's a disservice.

In philosophy, I've noticed that doors tend to open for those who have a certain profile (which I don't), and "merit" is often a work of fiction. The issues in academic philosophy - namely, pockets of active discrimination which some don't/can't be bothered too speak out about - have led me to rethink whether academia is for me. I also value my mental health and personal time too much to be constantly meeting increasingly ridiculous demands.

Despite all of this, I still love my subject. One doesn't need to be in academia to be a philosopher :)

usually senior academics who received their PhD around the time of the ark and walked straight into a permanent job

I probably look like one of those to ECRs now, but it's not how it feels from the inside. There are a couple of times I only got a job by the skin of my teeth. There were a couple of times when I might not have been part of that 10%

Of course, you may not be interested in that, or not really believe it.

But think about it logically - you're only seeing those academics who got academic jobs. You don't see the other 90% (? or whatever per cent it was/is) who are working elsewhere after their PhDs, in other sectors, types of jobs etc.

And you don't see the others who never made it to PhD - and I'd say there were fewer of those in the 2000s than there were in the mid to late-80s when I did mine. That is, in the humanities, anyway, there was more PhD funding than before, and now.

And how much do you expect to be "told"? I have a former PhD student who is still wanting an academic job. This is someone I advised within the first 6 months of candidature that they would probably not get an academic job: that they should develop a CV aimed at a related sector, which they were reasonably qualified for even before doing the PhD. But this person didn't listen to me ... I feel guilty - goodness knows why... I warned them, I tried to get them to do training that would be useful.

It's always been difficult. Always. I don't think you'd find an academic who'd say, Oh yes I just slid into a job.

I think where the system is most unfair is not at PhD level, PhDs are an end in themselves and plenty of students do them intending to go back in to industry, or the civil service, social researchers or whatever, as well as academia. It's more unfair to then shovel a lot of these PhDs who find it hard to get work and aren't sure what to do into short-term post-doc or temp teaching contracts- often two or three in a row as it's cheaper for funding bodies to fund someone for 15 months on £25 grand rather than a properly funded permanent fellowship or lectureship with a pensions, obviously, so they stack them high in the grants and then offer little job security or options after that.

I think this does two wrong things- first, it keeps really brilliant researchers demotivated and bored, plugging away on other people's research just at a time where they need to be starting to spread their wings, start up their own independent project and take off, and second, I think it can trap slightly less talented PhD students into a situation where they end up getting post-doc jobs (as there are a lot around) when they really have no hope of getting an academic career. I have had several PhD students who I don't think really will make it as academics (you might ask why the uni took them on, that's a whole other story) but would have done fine going back into industry with their new-found status, but instead are limping on years later with no sign of a lectureship in sight as they just don't have the drive to become truly independent researchers which is what the PhD is supposed to teach them. You then have the really great PhD finishers who get mired in teaching/making ends meet at the time their career and motivation needs lift off.

It's a structural problem, driven by wanting cheap temporary labour at the bottom end of the research market. I had several temp contracts in a row and it was such a stressful time, working through them, and it did affect my confidence in my ability to be a good academic when now I'm actually a more senior (not prof yet!) academic, I'm doing just fine. The system undermines you, whilst also not letting go of those who would be better elsewhere as it would rather they plodded along on short- contracts churning out research for more expensive professors.

Moving from a PhD to a permanent post is somewhere between an arms race, a ponzi scheme, and a war of attrition. I agree with the pp who said that those of us in permanent posts may have a glorious air of inevitability about us now, but it was pretty hairy at the time (i did 4 temporary posts in 3 far flung cities over 10 years before striking gold in yet another city).

The arms race bit of it means that yes, you have to publish publish publish if you want to compete (particularly with those lucky few who nabbed a BA postdoc (and Nb there is precisely one of those given out in my discipline per year nationally... Leverhulme early career have a higher success rate but still tiny) and managed to spend 3 years writing furiously).

In a way, it's crazy that it's so competitive - insecure ill paid jobs for years in order to get the chance of a job that'll maybe spit you out at retirement age on a salary of about £50-£70k. But it's that golden chalice of being paid to spend your working life reading, writing and talking about your most nerdy obsession with other people who are interested in it too...

Also agreeing with the ca. 10% PhD to permanent academic post conversion rate as a rough guess. Among my phd students it's more like 20%, but that's not a big enough sample to be meaningful. Among my postdocs it's 25% so far, with the others still in contract land (half of them with me still, on their second or third grant, and me spending 6-8 working weeks per year generating the grant applications for their next jobs...)

(and i agree about the danger of churning out research for expensive professors. There's an ethical issue there for those of us who win the grants, and it's just up to us to be honourable about building the independent publication records of our postdocs as well as taking credit for the stuff we do ourselves. There's no way of legislating for it, and the power politics of it all are potentially horrible 😒)

I'm an ex-academic (PhD, then post-doc positions, then permanent lecturership for 10 years before getting fed up of the whole system and resigning. I now run my own business earning more than I did in academia and without all the crap that goes with it).

In my field (sciences), unless you are pretty exceptional, you'd be unlikely to get yourself a permanent academic post within a year of completing your PhD, or even 2 years come to that. At "old" universities, you get hired into permanent posts on the basis of your research profile, not your abiliy to teach. Likewise, you'll get promoted on the basis of your research profile, not your teaching.

Now you've finished your PhD, you need to make a name for yourself as a post-doc - increase your publication record, work with some of the best names in your field, get yourself seen at conferences, if you can get yourself written into a grant application or two so that you have a track record of being able to attract funding.

You will need to be flexible in where you live if you are serious about an academic career, or be prepared for big commutes. It's part of the nature of the work.

In the sciences it is common to have completed at least 2 post-docs before standing a decent chance at being considered for a lecturership.

But I was never told to make a plan B.

With every sympathy for the difficulties of being an ECR, you were an adult. It was not somebody else's job to tell you to make a plan B; it was for you to be realistic about your chances. Progression from PhD to permanent academic has never been easy, even for very high achievers. (Even graduating from one of the top groups in the world with a very strong profile, I knew that it wasn't going to be easy.) I am not in philosophy but I have close friends who are: again, graduating from the top universities with very strong profiles, they still didn't find it easy 10-20 years ago.

BTW I also agree with pp about ECRs not always wanting to hear the warnings. I am open with postdocs/students about their chances of getting positions but they don't listen to the advice and make plan B. In one case, I had a student become very resentful and angry with me personally about his failure to get top postdocs (he had offers, but not from top places); he blamed me rather than admit to himself that his publications were just not strong enough to get him jobs at the places he wanted.

but it was pretty hairy at the time

God, the feeling of precarity. I've always been single & have to fend/pay for myself. Some people think that's easier, but it's actually just a different set of difficulties. Facing leaving doing the thing I've wanted to do since I was about 14 ... and no domestic emotional support (let alone paying a mortgage at 15% on a very low teaching fellow wage).

I think it's just hard whoever, whenever, wherever. Full stop.

I'm not sure what can be done though, thinking pragmatically about current funding models. I've had 3 large grants (AHRC & others) where I've employed postdocs. I think one has to be very careful re the ethics of them "doing" my research, and it's a fine line. But all our postdocs have gone into good careers, and we always made sure they had the time & intellectual space to produce their own independent research.

I've been HoD and I know that I can get more face to face teaching hours out of a mix of Teaching Fellows, hourly-paid colleagues, and permanent full & fractional colleagues. We are pulled between NSS & league table requirements to bring down staff-student ratios -0 so kore of us teaching more hours - and then producing 3 and 4* research.

We all pay for that in different ways. I have very little life outside work ... others maybe have not enough work! This is why my ambitions have stopped where they have in terns of academic leadership. I don't want to have to be responsible for solving these issues as a PVC or above. retreats to ivy-covered tower to read and write, saying "Leave me alone"!

But I've said that it was at least partly down to me. What I never really had from other academics was honesty about the reality of the situation. I don't think that was malicious. I think, rather, it was due to them having been out of the job market for some time and not quite grasping how things have changed in the discipline, with increasing pressure at every level.

Portraying me as someone who simply hasn't listened is unfair: I was never given any contrary advice to listen too. In fact, I am still being encouraged to apply to things like the BA Postdoc (these are just coming out), Leverhulme, AHRC Early Career Grant etc. The expectation seems to be that I've got a good chance of securing funding for the present project, and then turning it into something bigger. I, however, am more realistic and have indeed begun making a Plan B: if it comes off, then great; but if not, I won't be falling into a black hole wasting too much time on something that is unlikely to work out.

All of this might be moot. I think there are toxic aspects within my discipline that are detrimental to one's mental and physical health. I already have one foot out of the door. Not because I'm not "good enough" compared to others, but because some stuff is just not worth the negative impact upon my life.