Academics Chat Thread

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I believe the old Chat thread has fallen off the front page of this section, and I thought it might be time to reinstate it. I know it's only sporadically useful, but sometimes it's nice, right?

I am a lowly postdoctoral English Lit type. Finished my PhD in 2014, teaching associate for a couple of years, and now part-time while DD is a baby. I'm currently working frantically to get my book manuscript to the publisher by my deadline (October), and also trying to regain enthusiasm for the job market.

Who else is lurking around here?

Ah I think I was in WIASN though I've forgotten what the acronym is for. If it's the same group, I left because of the painful continuous virtue signalling, intolerance of gender critical perspectives and, alongside all that, complacent ignorance, prejudice and disinterest about how anything works outside the US. But maybe we're talking about different groups!

Nope, sounds the same!

Yes my sister warned me about trans issues being completely off-bounds.

BUt that is not to diminish what is mostly an excellent source of clearly much-needed support for a lot of women in academia.

I pick and choose my engagement with the group. Just like here and other online communities to which I belong.

I agree ohthehills. Those were the reasons I left but there were lots of good things about it and if I'd been more junior or more in need of support I would prob have stayed. I agree also that a lot of women in academia lack mentorship - I certainly do even though I do a lot of mentoring - and groups like that fill a real need.

I never got any mentorship. Recently I was at a thing where a senior person talked about offering mentorship to a younger (male) lecturer to get him to get to a certain point and ... I don't know what I thought ... Perhaps best not to think about it.

I'm having my summer "off" by working on 3 papers, supervising 6 MSc students, 1 PhD student, and revising my lecture notes.

NeverEverAnythingEver could you enquire about mentorship in your department? In my department it's compulsory to provide this (separate from line management) to junior academic/research staff.

In my department it's compulsory to provide this (separate from line management) to junior academic/research staff.

But the thing is that you can't make mentorship work just by making it compulsory for a mentor to be provided: there has to a connection, and a good fit, between mentor and mentee.

I do think that senior men are often more likely to offer informal support and mentorship to men in their teams, than to women. And women are often reluctant to bother senior staff (male or female) for support, while men will push much more for help. For example, it is quite common for men I have only met briefly at conferences to ask me for reference letters or support for applying for fellowships, while women I know much better don't approach me.

I have seen quite a few approaches to mentoring schemes: providing lists of mentors, organising events for networking with mentors and so on. None really seem to work that well.

No, I know it's not ideal, but if the manager takes the time to look for a good match, at the least you've got someone to consult with about career planning, where to publish and so on. It might very well be advice on which conferences to attend or how to approach outside mentors.

I’m in WIASN but have also limited my interaction with it and find it increasingly offputting.

I’ve seen multiple women bullied off that page, not just for gender critical perspectives (although anything of that sort is completely VERBOTEN).

Someone I vaguely know was piled on absolutely viciously for suggesting that PhD students were vulnerable to mental health difficulties and having the temerity to ask how she could best support her students. Quite why this attracted so much vitriol, I don’t know, since this is a very well-established issue but she left the group anyway - don’t blame her.

at the least you've got someone to consult with about career planning, where to publish and so on. It might very well be advice on which conferences to attend

This should be happening anyhow, surely, in annual reviews, discussions with line manager etc. If it isn't, the department's issues go well beyond mentoring - this is just basic guidance on career development.

Yes, user2222018 indeed, that should be happening, but in some cases the line manager might not be from the same field. It depends on the department as well as the way management lines are organised.

I fear I'm no longer junior.

Now all new staff get mentored. In my day you were just left on your own...

I did join a college-wide scheme once and that did help but my mentor was far too busy. We only met twice, but I did manage to get what I wanted to get out of it.

I do think that senior men are often more likely to offer informal support and mentorship to men in their teams, than to women. That is my experience. Now that I'm all grown up I can see things much clearer and I think, in fact, that I'm mentoring myself along the lines of what my brief-mentor said, and I understand much more the structural inequalities and bias, and I think I understand better how to get what I want.

Line managers can be supportive, but can also be undermining. Sad but true.

compulsory to provide [mentoring] to junior academic/research staff

made me uncomfortable to read that but maybe I don't understand.
Who is "junior"? Anyone with less than 3 yrs experience, or does junior mean everyone academic below senior lecturer rank (so including all the research assistants)? What happens if the junior person says 'No Thanks' to mentoring? Just the fact you call them junior makes me twitch.

Mentoring was pushed a bit where I am but didn't appeal to me at all.

We wouldn't use the words "junior" or "senior".

Mentoring could be offered for e.g. a 50 year old SL (who is by no means "junior").

The division junior/senior is used as shorthand for position on the academic career ladder. I'm not sure whether there is another phrase that would be better: while the mentoring usually comes from the person who who is higher ranked (according to the usual academic career ladder), not everybody wants to go up that ladder.

BTW reverse mentoring is increasingly popular. I've never really been convinced about it, although it can be an opportunity for senior leaders to get a better sense of what is going on in departments.

someone to consult with about career planning, where to publish and so on. It might very well be advice on which conferences to attend

I'm not even sure what mentoring is, exactly. Perhaps because I'm in such a niche field, there is definitely no one at my University that could fulfill that brief above.

I think we do have that 'mandatory mentoring', where junior means 'we just hired you at Lectureship level' (and so not for independent fellows, and not for people who enter as SL or Reader or Prof). And you have your mentor until you pass probation which when I did it was 3 years but I think now is less? We didn't do much. I think we met two times, each time before my annual review (not sure what happened to the third - I think one annual review was skipped, perhaps year 2), and the one bit of advice I recall is that I should do something 'administrative' to fill out my profile and so he arranged for me to run a seminar series. But I think that was not really long-term career planning, just to get people past probation.

The mentorship scheme I took part in gets you a mentor from a different field. Mainly it was very useful for talking about yourself. Actually it was incredibly useful to talk entirely about yourself without worrying about whether you are boring the other person or hogging the conversation, and you do (or I did) learn quite a few things about what I wanted to do and I didn't want to do.

I've never had field specific advice from people in my department, mainly because I've bloody-mindedly stuck to what I love which nobody else seems to ... But I have found like-minded people outside, so that's fine ... Probably ...

Yes, usually it is not a good idea for mentors to be too close to your own research: they can see more objectively from a little distance.

Mentoring is often much more about discussing career aims and aspirations, steps to achieve them, rather than research field specific stuff such as useful conferences, best journals.

Male academics often get so much more support in moving ahead in their careers, through being pulled into strategic roles, joint bids and so on. Mentoring can help women (and men) to clarify their goals and to think about the various paths that could be used to reach goals.

Soooo I've literally just heard I didn't get the job I interviewed for in May However, neither did the other finalist apparently, so fuck knows what is going on. I hope it's not that she turned it down and they chose having no-one over me

@LaDaronne this is quite common in academia.

I'd say it means you have dodged a bullet although it's more likely to be the incompetence of HR rather than the department.

And I'm sorry they haven't been polite enough to let you know where you stand. It's so much prep and stress in advance of academic interviews. If you are anything like I was, you'd rather have the good or bad news sooner rather than later.

If no one got it, this is sometimes because the post vanished - either internal conflicts/politics/requirements meant that e.g. a Dean refused to hire any of the candidates, or sometimes that funding disappeared (this latter is more common in the US). It's really poor that they kept you waiting so long.

I know it happens. Still, what a fucking massive waste of my time, money and energy. Fuckers.