Academic's talk cancelled because he would not show his passport

[Booboostwo]

This is truly outrageous. A philosopher's talk at Herts Uni was cancelled after he refused to show a copy of his passport. This is a British academic, from a British institution, giving a talk at a British institution (not that it matters). Since when do administrators decide academic lecture programmers on entirely arbitrary criteria involving requests for documents that are not even legally required?

www.timeshighereducation.com/news/philosophers-talk-cancelled-due-passport-rules

What's all the fuss about? Sometimes you need to prove that you are who you say you are, and that's fine.

Okay Twogoats - DM me a photo of your passport.

Twogoats Why would anyone impersonate a philosophy reader to give a non-renumerated talk at Herts? Usual audience for such talks is 10 people if you are lucky so not exactly steeped in glory, there are only a few hundred philosophers in the UK so we all know each other anyway, and even if the impostor made it to the front of the room what exactly would he say once he started speaking?

I don't know why he needed to show his passport to speak. Blame it on Brexit?

However, nor do I see why his position would exempt him from something that might be required from more junior people. If checks on nationality apply, then that should apply to everyone.

Sometimes you need to prove that you are who you say you are.

Sure, but for an unpaid talk? When it is in any case very, very common for such academic talks to be given by foreign visitors who don't have the right to undertake paid work in the UK?

However, nor do I see why his position would exempt him from something that might be required from more junior people. If checks on nationality apply, then that should apply to everyone.

But if our country is wasting times and resources on checking nationality for unpaid academic talks then it is surely right to speak up about this and stop it happening.

BTW I remember years ago being asked for passport/NI number for an unpaid talk at a UK university. It's not new.

Sounds like he had imposter syndrome!

It's probably some sort of anti-radicalisation dictat.

Of course the whole thing is preposterous. But while students are up in arms about the bureaucracy preventing them from hearing ideas from whoever , some might like to ponder their own role in policing the free discussion of ideas and thought, and who has the right to be heard within the No Platform movement.

I can't believe it costs much money or takes much time to check a passport.

Admin: please can we see your passport (or copy of relevant page)
Academic : of course. Here it is (or jpeg via email)

Not exactly expensive.

Am sure in this case it is costing more than usual.

mision what requirements are you referring to? You just seem to be making things up! This is not a legal requirement, in the Uk it is not even a requirement to have a passport much less show it before you can give an academic talk. And is this claim that he is using his position? Who else has to present their passports for academic talks? When did he say that he wouldn't show his passport because he is a reader as opposed to a lecturer?

This is about academic freedom. The members of the Herts philosophy department chose this visiting speaker because they wanted to hear what he had to say and he was prevented from speaking by Herts management based on a demand that has no legal standing and no practical rationale. What next? And in this climate of nationalism, xenophobia and racism it is very important to ask what next!

Blu yes the speculation is that Herts has grossly misinterpreted their obligations under anti-radicalization legislation. The legislation itself is ridiculous, there is no need to arbitrarily extend it.

I can't believe it costs much money or takes much time to check a passport. Admin: please can we see your passport (or copy of relevant page) Academic : of course. Here it is (or jpeg via email) Not exactly expensive.

My own university recently changed regulations for international visitors because they estimated that one minor admin procedure (applicable to some visitors) was costing the university as a whole around £20,000 per year. Processing this procedure took an administrator 5 mins per visitor, but 5 mins multiplied by the number of visitors turned it into a full-time job.

BTW I would estimate my own department has around 1000 visitors per year (leaving out conferences). Checking passports for all visitors could easily take up several weeks of an administrator's time, over the course of a year.

OK, I might back away here. You seem to have a connection to the situation. I don't.

I said above that I have no idea why the academic was asked to show a passport. The point I tried to make (apparently badly) is that if you are asked to show id for something, your status should not exempt you.

I have to show proof of id sometimes at work. It is not complicated or expensive or time consuming.

I'm struggling to see how the passport requirement is anything to do with the anti-radicalization obligations. I suspect instead it is more to do with right to work requirements - universities are terrified of losing their licence to sponsor international students and overseas workers, so are introducing procedures far in excess of what is required to ensure that they dont' make a costly mistake.

The point Two and others, is that in this country we've always had a tradition (barring wartime ID cards) of the state/authority figures having to leave you alone to get on with your business unless they have a damn good reason to act otherwise. Therefore, when in the course of my job I've been to army bases, of course I've had to show ID. When I go to talk at universities, of course I don't.

The idea that any jobsworth at a university should have the right to demand ID for no blooming reason at all is the sort of thing that ends in a police state (and no, I don't think I'm exaggerating here - I followed the news reports of the recent Tory conference and it chilled me to the bone).

Sorry, that should have been to misson, not to two.

mission but he was not asking for an exemption because of his status, he was refusing as there was no obligation to even have a passport much less show it. If someone stops you on the street and asks for your passport will you show it? If you want to buy a sandwich and you are asked for your passport before you are given the sandwich will you show it? Why does he have to?

I do have a connection. I know him professionally and as an academic I am connected to everything that happens to Universities. But because I have a personal concern it doesn't mean that this should not be a concern for other academics, students and everyone in general. Britain has a tradition of freedom of expression, academic freedom and excellence in education which has been under threat the last couple of decades. This is a tiny erosion but if we accept the tiny erosions of liberties we may soon find ourselves subject to much greater attacks.

I find a lot of what is happening to British society at the moment to be deeply disturbing, we should speak up about all of it.

This is the suggested link to counter-terrorism legislation (although I do not want to inspire any other Uni administrators!):

"The counter terrorism and security act of 2015 imposed the Prevent Duty on Universities in yhe UK. Part of this duty is to ‘have systems in place for assessing and mitigating risks around external speakers and events on campus, while maintaining the existing duty to promote freedom of speech’. I believe (and I am not really sure about this) that the act itself doesn’t really specify just how the universities are to carry out this requirement of tackling extremesism. So what has happened is that the university administrations have gone to the extremes by requiring pages and pages of paperwork and documents for every speaker so that they can show to the government that they have complied (and HEFCE is monitoring them). After all, you never know – the virtue ethicists and formal epistemologists all have a chance of corrupting the youth "
dailynous.com/2016/11/05/philosopher-refuses-hand-passport-talk-cancelled/

As everyone says, there are two possible reasons they thought this was a good idea a) employment law which requires people to show their nationality/for foreign born nationals to be recorded or b) the Prevent legislation which is very unlikely to prevent anything actually happening, but is likely to result in a huge amount of paperwork, as every single talk in a university has to now be accompanied with the paperwork to show you followed the rules. Neither justify showing the passport for a casual lecture but often people think the more documents, the more their asses are covered.

I won't be going places showing my passport, it creates entirely the wrong vibe in going and giving lectures on your work around the country (for free!) You aren't trying to enter their institution (except in a casual kind of a way to exchange intellectual ideas) or be employed by them, it's just not necessary. I would also say no.

as every single talk in a university has to now be accompanied with the paperwork to show you followed the rules

This is not true. Some universities may choose to interpret the legislation this way, but it would be beyond ridiculous for all talks to be accompanied by paperwork. We have a simple sign off for seminar series in science subjects, topics that could not possibly be viewed as relevant in any way to radicalisation.

If it is the concerns around the Prevent duty, the academic's frustration should be clearly pointed towards the university rather than, say, the government.

Passports are helpful for proving identity but there's nothing in them that says "I am a radicaliser". And given that a number of known radicalisers are converts whose passport may well still be in their birth name rather than their Muslim name, even requesting documents to confirm identity in and of itself won't be very helpful. It sounds very much like the university has chosen to interpret its duty in a very very heavy-handed way.

Blimey--I thought I was on AIBU for a moment.

I completely agree, OP.

A friend of mine got a similar request. She's not a British citizen, BTW, but employed at a UK Uni and got asked for a typical academic talk. She refused, and nothing came of it. I think this must be happening a lot.

(Hmm. I'm trying to remember, but I'm pretty sure the UK gov't didn't even ask me for my passport when paying me for RC activity - and I am actually an offical employee there and get a seperate HMRC statement and everything. They did ask for my NI number, though. Thinking more, they definitely didn't ask for the passport, because I remember having to explain quite late in the whole process - like when giving my bank account details - that the name they were calling me wasn't actually my legal name, which they clearly would have known had they seen a passport.)

but if you want to do something 'official' for an institution, what is wrong with complying with their processes?

I think just saying no sounds very petty and 'sticking it to the man' - but he's now not giving his talk, and everyone loses?

Well, if you think their processes are inappropriate, then it makes sense. And it's more the institution wants you to do something for them - giving an academic talk is one of those 'extras' we do for our colleagues' benefit. Yeah, you get to meet some people - but you can do that just as well as going for a visit and not have to prepare a talk. So if a place asks you to do a favour for them, and then wants some intrusive information, if you're not comfortable with it, and I can see backing down.

For my friend, I believe she felt her citizenship wasn't their business, and it was right after the Brexit vote so I imagine she was feeling reasonably vulnerable at that point, and saw no reason to hand over personal information they had no need for. And the Uni saw it the same way and agreed it was unnecessary, so let her come. The weird thing here is that the administration hurt its own staff by saying the guy couldn't come.