Please tell me about how having children affected your academic life(?)

[Boozena]

Hello
I applied for my first post grad job and have just had the rejection email.
I haven't submitted my PhD yet so knew I was already on the back foot but my research interests and publication history fitted perfectly. I also know it was only my first application so I need to get a grip!
DH and I were discussing starting our family. We sort of said if I didn't get this job we would start trying. I'm due to submit at the end of the year. Would this be career suicide? I'm worried ill be "out of the loop" if I have a baby now. Would it be better to get a job and settle in first?
DH is starting a much better paid job in Aug but regardless he has supported me throughout my studies even on low wage. So finances not a huge issue but could/would be much better if I worked.
Rambling now! Any thoughts?

It is very hard to get a research only permanent job, there have been moves to try to formalize the career path for research only individuals but it hasn't been that easy, and the people I know who have done it either have had a series of short post-docs and not anything permanent, or I know of a couple in medical schools who hold very large grant portfolios and essentially have just funded their own jobs for many years. Lectureships are still the easiest way to permanent secure employment.

That salary looks high to me, but I am in a low wage area academically, that would be for senior research fellow, we have had quite a few people employed as associate research fellows recently, including with PhDs which is fairly outrageous as the salary for that is really quite low. There are a lot of desperate people around, which is good for institutions, not so good for employees.

I don't want to put you off though, I've found academia a good family friendly career, I know lots of people don't, but for me I don't work crazy hours, just very hard as and when, and I've found it flexible.

Re not wanting a career in academia - I'd obviously not make this clear at interview, I have a good idea of research routes I'd take if I stayed in academia.

I still suspect that they will see through it.

The starting salary for somebody just out of PhD is £29k. £38k is for a senior research fellow or starting lecturer. As PP, I would be very surprised if you could get that directly from PhD. If the position is offering £38k then they will be able to hire somebody who is much more experienced than you - that would be decent salary for somebody 5-10 years post PhD.

Of course it depends what field you are in and what kind of jobs outside academia you are going to look for, but in general academic salaries are low relative to the alternatives. It's quite normal for my graduating PhD students to be offered salaries in jobs outside academia which are comparable to or more than mine (senior professor).

Some aspects of academia are easy to combine with some children. If you have the type of DC who happily play alone while you work - you can pick them up from school and take them to your office, and work on things at weekends. If they sleep early and well, you have your evenings back. But this is a matter of luck. I am very jealous of the academic mothers of one very mature five year old who can do this sort of thing. I have two demanding though very lovely DCs.

Isn't The Psychologist non-peer-reviewed? Do you have some peer reviewed articles?

First, you have time. Submit your thesis first.
Then, see how the first job goes. You might enjoy it. :)
If you're planning on leaving work, why do a PhD at all? It sounds like madness. You could be earning more as a technician.
Anyway, it's possible to coordinate science and children. Many women do. We can work flexibly and often from home (even if they go to nursery, it helps) and universities often have nurseries. Look it up.
Maternity leave conditions can also be ok. I had full salary for 4 months. But you will need to be working a few months to qualify.

You can also get childcare vouchers.

I'm really interested in this, sorry if I'm derailing the thread. I got my first academic job (fixed term 2 year lectureship covering secondment leave) straight after my PhD fairly easily. I had a baby during that. My job is now coming to an end but I haven't been able to find much work for next year (applying while on mat leave). I got lots of interviews but no job.Have I screwed it all up by having a baby at this stage? I couldn't wait because of fertility problems so I don't regret my choice if so but I'm still stressed about it.

I doubt it's the baby - what are your publications like? We are having to prioritise readiness for the REF brutal horrible process

Do you have a coherent narrative for your research trajectory?

Lules, it's hard to comment without knowing the field.

In my field we would have hundreds of applicants for any job (fixed term or permanent) and all the interviewed candidates would be well above the threshold for getting the job. The person who would get the offer would typically have the strongest publication record and most mature/broad/deep perspective on research.

Near-disastrously. But, as one pp implied, that's because I have no familial support and made the mistake of having a child with someone who turned out to be useless and borderline abusive. I fortunately had a permanent job before I had my child, but given how little I've managed to publish since, I wouldn't get it now. I did enough (and well enough) to scrape through the last REF, and should hopefully manage to do the same in 2020. After that, I hope to be divorced and able to determine my own time, plus my DD will be older, and I'm crossing my fingers that I can catch up a little. But I'd say that I'll be at least a decade behind my immediate peers. My most successful female colleagues are either childless, progressed (much) later in their careers, and/or have genuinely supportive and/or wealthy partners/families.

Nomen I agree about the successful female academics I know.

All of them have never had children, waited until they were established (e.g., SL) before having children, or have a partner who is a SAHP / works part-time.

Being successful in academia requires incredible focus at the best of times, and I'm full of admiration for anyone who manages it outside the above circumstances.

Sorry I'm in the car (passenger) so my response might be a bit garbled!
I'm not fixed on having an academic career and frankly I'm beginning to wonder if it's for me after all. I'm in health psych and do have peer reviewed publications too.
Id rather not lecture tbh that would be worst case scenario for me. Appreciate it's difficult to get research only jobs which is why I suspect I need a rethink.
The job I applied for was research/senior research associate, I met all the criteria bar having submitted phd and checked with the 'informal enquiries' person to see if it was worth applying- I did on her recommendation.
I think I'm going to just crack on with my PhD, keep trying to publish and use contraception til Christmas then re-evaluate. I'll also look into alternative careers!

I think health psychology is an excellent sub-discipline from which to jump to a number of jobs- now that all health promotion/prevention work has gone to local councils, they can be a bit unstable, but I know lots of people who work in various capacities in this field, from charities doing academic work in domestic violence to public health consultants (which is a specific track within the NHS). There's quite a lot of research work that doesn't involve lecturing within medical schools. You could get chartered health psychology status after finishing your PhD. I know people who work more in the management of large research projects/clinical trials as well.

In some fields, non-lecturing posts are hard to find, but I think the field you are in has lots of options. I still wouldn't bother applying for much yet til submission though- as that's the golden ticket as far as making any shortlist (I would be completely surprised if in this job market they interviewed you prior to that, whatever the contact says).

All of them have never had children, waited until they were established (e.g., SL) before having children, or have a partner who is a SAHP / works part-time.

I have children; my DP works more than full-time and is often away and I don't have family nearby. (On the other hand DP does look after DC while I travel, so in this sense he does help.) I became a professor in my 30s (after having DC).

It's possible to succeed but indeed requires you to be very focussed and work whenever you can. And while our family is not wealthy we earn enough (and our needs are moderate enough) that I have been able to spend much of my income on daycare/after school care to facilitate full time work.

I am a single parent with two DC, in an RG uni, promoted post- I count myself as reasonably successful. Having children slows down career progression, it does not make it impossible. You need to develop a thick skin to watch single, male colleagues leap-frog you, fight pigeonholing into pastoral care roles, and be prepared to survive on very little sleep at certain points. Whether it is worth it is a different issue.

I have 2 DC and although I have been successful in my academic career I have not published as much as I could have as I prefer to prioritise my DC over work. This means I no longer travel or attend conferences as frequently and I spend less time working generally as I try to maintain a balance, although I work fulltime. Tbh this just means I end up simultaneously feeling guilty that I do not spend enough time with my family and that I am not working hard enough.
I got my phd at 25 then did a series of fixed term contract post-doc positions, had DS1 at 31 then finally secured a permanent research only, no teaching post at 38 immediately on my return from second lot of maternity leave. I have been very lucky. I do not know anyone else with a permanent research only post (salary paid by the uni not grant income), they are very few and far between.
Also jobs in general are very hard to come by. We recently recruited for an entry level technician post on a fixed term 2 year contract, only requiring a BSc. Over 80 people applied, the majority had an MSc, but a huge number had a phd and publication record. It was quite depressing frankly. Post-brexit I think jobs in science will be even harder to come by if the EU funding issue isn't sorted.
Basically I would echo everyone else and say decide what career path you really want to follow, get a job and then think about children. A job in academia has afforded me flexibility in my working life, especially as I don't have any undergrad teaching, but it is not easy. There is a bigger age gap than I would ideally have liked between my DC because I found it so hard to balance work and my very demanding DS1 (who did not sleep through the night until he was 5 and has ASD).
Good luck!

Regarding the pigeonholing and pastoral care mentioned by cocoabutton - I find I get tagged as an example of "women in science", which I hate, and asked to do a lot of mentoring roles for female ESRs. And I was once introduced by a senior male colleague as "ThisToo, she's a mum" Strangely enough I never heard any male coworkers being introduced as "So and so, he's a dad"

esornep Good for you! You sound like the invisible example of what I assume exists but have never personally seen.

If you don't mind answering, what career stage were you at (postdoc, L, SL, etc.) when you had your first child?

I waited til I was established SL before having DC (and also have a supportive partner, though he works full time), and consider myself pretty successful now, expected to get a chair in the next year or so. Several junior female academics have asked my advice about balancing career and family, but I'd like to think there were more options than the ones I outlined earlier (stay childless, wait until established, have SAHP).

I held a longterm research grant (analogous to Royal Society fellowship) when I had my first child. I came straight off this to professorship.

Esornep, do you mean you were only one step away from professorship when you had your first child?
I do get the impression that the better established you are when you start your family, the easier it is. Even just for the simple reason that childcare costs are easier once you're earning more.

I have only read OP's posts.
I suggest finish the PhD b4 ttc, just get it ticked off.
& ideally do 1-2 yrs postdoc b4 TTC if you want to keep academia as an option, and have some solid work experience on your CV for any future path... sounds like you'll be looking long term at entrepeneurial path, not academic, though, so not sure why you asked about impacts on academic career. Having kids usually undermines a women's longer term earnings, in whatever career; that's a whole 'nother set of issues.

MNer academics are very very negative about being an academic at all, imho. I thought most the ideas you had were possibles.

Having small children right when you want to start a business won't be wildly easier. A lot of universities (mine) are obsessed with enterprise; they even have starter grants to help academics get business ideas off the ground. Mine has these funds available even to lowly RAs. Only like £600, but the money is there, few strings attached.

Thanks Pillows I like to think I've chosen a subject I can use in a variety of ways (even if it is a happy coincidence it worked out this way). It's good to hear you're on the same wavelength.
I have a very supportive DH and he was going to be a SAHP but he recently landed his 'ultimate job'- something he can happily do til we set up on decent money so that's gone out of the window.
MedSchool there's some food for thought there and something I've considered before, having young kids and developing a business will be no mean feat either!
I think I meant academic career in a short term sense ie. Will anyone employ me if I take a year out after I submit to have s baby!
Thanks again for all of your thoughts- it might not have been what I wanted to hear but it's def good to have an impartial sounding board!

Esornep, do you mean you were only one step away from professorship when you had your first child?

No, I had a tenure track position equivalent to assistant professor/lecturer. I skipped associate professor/reader/senior lecturer and jumped straight to professor. I did a huge amount of work to do so - when my DC were small I worked late into the night and on weekends.

MNer academics are very very negative about being an academic at all, imho.

But you do need to bear in mind that there is a lot more "soft money" for research and teaching fellows running around medical departments and a lot more turnover in positions in medical departments than in many other areas. It can really be much, much harder in many other fields of academia. A set up like MedSchoolRat has of longterm research only positions is virtually impossible in my own field, for example, and just to get a postdoc position at all you have to be willing to move country as there are so few available in any given subfield.

MNer academics are very very negative about being an academic at all, imho

I love my job - it's a vocation. But at the moment, in the state our HE is in, I need sometimes to remind myself of that.

The possibly negative tone you hear (if it's so) is often because people not in academia, or rather new naïve PhDs or academics don't realise the work that needs to be done. On the HE topic, the parents who post about their children at or going to university rarely understand what academics do, and at times some posters clearly don't value us as very highly-skilled expert & diligent professionals. So I think sometimes I know I probably overegg the pudding a tad in terns of the difficult aspects of the job. Although I think it's clear that the university system is in decline. It shouldn't be - we've never more needed a properly critically thinking population.

But then, who listens to experts ?

I did a huge amount of work to do so - when my DC were small I worked late into the night and on weekends.

I stand by my post. You had some system in place to enable this: either a supportive partner/family, or enough money to pay for all the additional childcare you needed. If one's working into the night is continuously interrupted by a poor sleeper (and the other parent refuses to deal with it) or you don't have family to pass DC over to on the weekends, then that "huge amount of work" can't be done. It just can't, regardless of how committed or hard-working one is.

My children didn't sleep through the night til they were five. I breastfed them until they were three. I didn't have help from a DP through the night.

I didn't have family or childcare to look after the children on weekends: DP and I would share, and would work during nap/watching cartoons/after they went to bed. DC would generally sleep from 8 until 12, so we would work then.

It was and is really very hard.