The difference between being controlling and "not standing for it"

[Resealablestrip]

For example, if I say I don't like it when DH drinks and ask him not to, I'll be told on here that's controlling.

But if I say nothing and he goes out drinking with varying degrees of consequences for him/us I'll be told I shouldn't stand for it.

The same with hobbies or unpleasant friends, a particularly close relationship with MiL (all just examples, not the same man btw), asking him not to is controlling (according to MNetters) but "letting" him is something that shouldn't be stood for.

None of this is about me. My DP barely drinks.

No, that is an absolutely controlling.

‘You wearing revealing clothing makes me unhappy, I’d prefer it if you didn’t.’

’You seeing Sarah this weekend makes me unhappy, I’d prefer it if you didn’t.’

’You staying out past midnight makes me unhappy, I’d prefer it if you didn’t.’

’You talking to other men/women makes me unhappy, I’d be prefer it if you didn’t.’

All controlling and abusive.

I don't think it's that black and white. It will always depend on the context and we don't always get all of it

So you're never allowed to mention anything that bothers you about the way someone behaves?

IMO, it's repeatedly raising it rather than moving in which can make it become abusive. Or toxic, at least.

Okay, well, your hypothetical person’s boundary is fuzzy.

I have to explain this a lot as my eldest DD is prone to trying to control her siblings. You only have the right to control your own behaviour. You don't like someone's singing, yes you can politely ask them to do it in another room, explain you have a headache and hope they are sympathetic, but you can't make them, whether that's through verbal demands or physically, or your behaviour is unacceptably controlling. You're the one who needs to move rooms, put in earplugs, noise cancelling headphones, move house at the extreme if it's really a problem for you. You are only allowed to control your own behaviour, but you can improve on compromising and negotiating with others so everyone feels happy with the outcome rather than just immediately moving out at every small issue.

Of course. It bothered me that my partner spent a few weeks prioritising his hobbies and friends and I felt slightly neglected, so I told him I was feeling a bit neglected and like I wasn’t much of a priority in his life at the moment. He apologised and said he’d make more effort and he did. That was affecting me, because it meant we hadn’t any time together for a few weeks. I would never have told him I didn’t want him to do his hobbies or see his friends though.

It bothered me over the weekend when I was trying to show him something I’d bought (for him!) and he kept looking through the door at the football. I said I thought he was being rude, he said sorry, looked at the item, and then went back to the football.

What sort of thing would it be where a behaviour bothers a person and that would lead a person to have to ask their partner to stop doing something?

I think it's the lack of explanation why that tips it into controlling and when people are reluctant to say why it becomes a big red flag.

Eg
"I don't like you going out drinking because every time you do you get arrested/come home and wet the bed/cheat/fight" or "I don't want you going out drinking tonight because you promised to take our daughter to football tomorrow morning and you won't be safe to drive if hungover" or "I don't want you going out drinking because I'm a recovering alcoholic and I just can't be around drink people". Those are all very different reasons but it's reasonable to express them. And the other partner can do with it what they wish. That might still entail going out drinkingor finding a compromise or accepting the relationship has run it's course.

What is manipulative and controlling is not providing an explanation beyond "if you loved me you wouldn't", "I shouldn't have to explain why" "I'll leave you".

Even the not seeing a friend one makes sense if it's the case that Sarah murdered their partner. But when there is no easy to explain reason that's usually when the emotional manipulation and bullying starts and that's because the real reason is control.

Yes, I think this is very well said.

I do think there are still things that fall through the cracks though. There is another thread running where OP didn’t want her partner to drink because they’d agreed not to in advance, and she didn’t want to go out if he was drinking. When they got there he changed his mind and fancied a drink. She could say the reason - she didn’t want him to drink because she didn’t want to be sober with two people who were drinking - but it still is (in my opinion) controlling to try and stop a grown man changing his mind.

Context is everything.
There are absolutely some extreme judgements (particularly in the my DH said / did this thing department) where people will jump to the most drastic conclusions.

Saying you don’t like drinking full stop and getting huffy at one peroni with dinner is vastly different to saying someone wouldn’t stand for an unhealthy relationship with alcohol.

I think you are confusing being controlling with having boundaries.

If you are telling someone else how to behave, what to say or do, then that is controlling.

If you’re saying X behaviour on your part will lead to Y behaviour on my part, you are setting a boundary. You are telling them what you will do/not do.

Its more about how bad are the consequences of his drinking and it having a direct effect on you and your children.
So if he cant socialise sensibly or in moderation and the consequences continue its ultimatum time.. thats not being controlling its self respect for yourself and your kids which he clearly has none of x

It might also not be affecting anyone other than the person drinking, other than a decision that’s been made by the partner that for some reason she simply does not want him to drink unless given permission in advance. That is controlling.

I agree OP. I think this has a lot to do with internalised misogyny. Women are berated and blamed for men's poor behaviour on Mumsnet and IRL by other women. Men call women controlling when they ask them to step up in some way, for example be present for their own children, pick up wet towels off the bathroom floor, contribute like a normal adult to housework. Calling women controlling is a way to shut us down. Women internalise this and think it is normal, colluding by calling other women controlling. 'Not standing for it' is a term women often in a more fortunate position use to talk about having boundaries. The same women who say they don't stand for it are happy to criticise other women for being controlling. The solution is for women to recognise the internalised misogyny and for men to step up and actually contribute to managing a home and looking after children, rather than needing women to 'control' them (i.e. encourage them to play an equal part in running a home and looking after children in whatever way works) or having to 'not stand for it'. We shouldn't criticise each other for our legitimate responses to men's poor behaviour and entitlement.

Both my DH and I played Saturday and Sunday, netball and football.

Once we were planning a family, I said, if we have children we will need to find week day teams for these sports, because I wouldn't want to be married to a man who leaves at 9am on a Sunday to travel an hour, fanny around for a hour before the 11am kick off, then off to the pub for 1pm for 2 hours, to drive home for an hour, leaving me with the children for 7 hours on a rest day.

My dad played Saturday and Sunday sport growing up and would leave my mum alone for 6-8 hours a day as well as heading off to the pub in the evenings. I could see the unfairness as a child, and would always be so annoyed by it.

I knew it wasn't something I was going to tolerate in my own family life.

Some people could say that was controlling (although I did also stop my weekend sport), but it was a very firm boundary that I knew I wouldn't budge on.

The difference is that 'not standing for it' is what women say when they describe their own approach. Being 'controlling' is reserved for other women. There is something smug and self-congratulatory about it. It all comes back to the same problem - men not stepping up and women having to to find the 'perfect' approach to trying to get them to behave like grown ups. Clue: there is no perfect approach - it will always somehow be your fault!

That’s not controlling at all though because he could have decided that having children wasn’t something he wanted to do. He had a choice.

This is it and explained perfectly and succinctly.

The tricky bit is what you will do if you won't stand for something and sticking to the courage of your convictions.